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1 hour ago, john510 said:

Well he is a Republican and would have MISHANDLED it like only Republicans can do.

Thank you John510 for making my point. Politics influence your choice making, you aren't alone.  but if you make an argument where everyone starts with the same baseline it changes everything, for example. Well use engine health as a substitute for human health for comparison purposes. Someone somewhere is working on a contaminant that can hurt engine life and kill high milers (or if you dont buy the lab leak theory well say it jumped from a sail), it gets out so the initial response is to garage your car to flatten the curve, then they said you could drive but you had to put a cap full of ATF in your oil (mask) to protect other engines, then a year later bardahl came out with a solution (bardahl no smoke) to extend your engines life beyond the minimum expected mileage 250k+= 65+ yrs. Great right? but is it great if your engine only has 25k on it? Doesnt matter, if you dont put it in you will lose your seats tires windows.All the while engine rebuilders and mechanics  arent saying just one thing in contrast but rather so many we have lost track of all the potential drawbacks while alteratively suggesting that more frequent oil and filter changes will also solve the contaminant issue BUT every time they do the API says they arent qualified to make such statements because they dont manufacture engines..wouldnt you call bullshit? 

Edited by jbirds510
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On 10/16/2021 at 9:19 AM, john510 said:

You typed all of that and ended it with "it is a choice" ? Obviously it isn't.

 

Everyone is always at choice in everything they do, and everything they say, everyday. Every person always has a choice and to take ownership of their choice. 

 

Regarding getting a vaccination, or not, the choice lies with the individual.

 

If an individual doesn't want to get a vaccination, they have to accept whatever goes with that choice. No other person can bear the consequences of that choice, one the person who makes that choice.

 

If an individual wants to  get a vaccination, that is their choice, and they too have to own whatever goes with that choice.

 

You make your choice and live with it. I'll support your right to make whatever choice you choose, and wish you the best.

 

I've made mine, as all the millions of choices I have made in my life. I own those choices, and hold no one else accountable for them.

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On 10/16/2021 at 10:45 AM, Mattndew76 said:

 

None of that was even happening. 

 

The reason the fitness for duty law was enacted was because too many idiots couldn't separate recreational use of alcohol and drugs from work. More and more accidents were the result of impaired operators of planes, trains, ships, and trucks.

 

Granted, the drug and alcohol testing hasn't fixed the problem, only increased the ranks of the idiots who continue to make bad choices.

 

 

On 10/16/2021 at 10:45 AM, Mattndew76 said:

 

 

 

Also we have a largely Marijuana free society now and drug tests are becoming rare in the work place so its almost come full circle how this policy had ZERO impacts on anything other than an exercise of control.

 

 

 

Drug and alcohol testing is a huge business, and employers are still utilizing it, by order of the fitness for duty laws. Nothing has changed since the law was enacted in 1992. Most employers also require a pre employment drug and alcohol screen for all new hires, even if they are not for transportation sensitive positions. 

 

Walmart even does pre employment drug screening for the poverty level jobs they have.

 

I don't see marijuana being removed from the schedule 1 narcotics list either, even though over half of the states and the District of Columbia have enacted recreational marijuana use.

 

Canada has legalized recreational use nationwide.

 

Having been used by humans for centuries, marijuana isn't going away anytime soon. 

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 If it was simple yea or nay it's easy. If the nay side comes with insurmountable obstacles and conditions while the yea has virtually none in comparison, your choice could be said to be unfairly narrowed down for you. Who hasn't had to select something other than what they wanted and said "I had to chose this, I had no/little choice."

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Racer X 69 said:

Canada has legalized recreational use nationwide.

 

Having been used by humans for centuries, marijuana isn't going away anytime soon. 

 

I haven't used in decades till this year and then only barely. Started legally growing my own high, (brownies) ..... why not, I'm no longer working, not driving, no kids to watch out for. Shits everywhere in stores. When ever the old lady is in a good mood I just know she ate some chocolate. Hope no piss test for mods.

 

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On 10/16/2021 at 11:38 AM, datzenmike said:

 

Well here if you fail you get a vacation and counseling help. I don't know what the requirements are for returning to work, certainly several drug free tests.  Depending on your job even fired. What's the point of a test and no repercussions?

 

In the US following a failed random UA some companies draw a hard line and no second chance is given. The employee is terminated, and will not be eligible for rehire. 

 

Some companies allow a second chance, provided the individual is cooperative, admits a substance abuse problem, submits to counseling and rehab. Upon submitting to a clean drug and alcohol screen the individual is allowed to return to duty, but will be called more often for testing, usually monthly, for a period of one to two years. Any failed test results in immediate termination.

 

And operator refusing to submit to a drug or alcohol test will be treated as if they failed the test.

 

Regarding drivers with a CDL, the license changed from an A endorsement to an actual Commercial Driver's License (no the same as the license non CDL drivers get) in 1992. The licenses are issued by each state, under the direction of the federal government. If a driver loses their driving privilege for any reason, they can no longer go to another state and get another license, as there is a federal database keeping track.

 

 

A CDL driver can have their driving privilege suspended for a number of reasons, even when operating a non commercial motor vehicle. The privilege can also be suspended for a number of criminal offenses and felonies. Suspensions range from up until a clean drug/alcohol screen to a lifetime suspension of driving privilege, including an ordinary driver's license.

 

I know that Canada draws a pretty hard line regarding drunken driving, and anyone attempting entry to the country that has EVER had a DUI will not be allowed entry.

 

Here, regular drivers are held to a 0.08 BAC, CDL drivers are held to a 0.04 BAC, EVEN IN A PRIVATE NON COMMERCIAL VEHICLE.

 

If a person holding a CDL is driving along, in a non commercial motor vehicle and some drunk or drugged up jackass runs a red light and causes an accident, and someone is killed, the guy with the CDL is sent for a drug and alcohol test. If there is a detectable amount of any prohibited substance that person automatically becomes at fault, because they were not supposed to be behind the wheel.

 

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3 hours ago, jbirds510 said:

Thank you John510 for making my point. Politics influence your choice making, you aren't alone.  but if you make an argument where everyone starts with the same baseline it changes everything, for example. Well use engine health as a substitute for human health for comparison purposes. Someone somewhere is working on a contaminant that can hurt engine life and kill high milers (or if you dont buy the lab leak theory well say it jumped from a sail), it gets out so the initial response is to garage your car to flatten the curve, then they said you could drive but you had to put a cap full of ATF in your oil (mask) to protect other engines, then a year later bardahl came out with a solution (bardahl no smoke) to extend your engines life beyond the minimum expected mileage 250k+= 65+ yrs. Great right? but is it great if your engine only has 25k on it? Doesnt matter, if you dont put it in you will lose your seats tires windows.All the while engine rebuilders and mechanics  arent saying just one thing in contrast but rather so many we have lost track of all the potential drawbacks while alteratively suggesting that more frequent oil and filter changes will also solve the contaminant issue BUT every time they do the API says they arent qualified to make such statements because they dont manufacture engines..wouldnt you call bullshit? 

Not sure if that came across as expected,that was supposed to be sarcasm.

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3 hours ago, Racer X 69 said:

 

Everyone is always at choice in everything they do, and everything they say, everyday. Every person always has a choice and to take ownership of their choice. 

 

Regarding getting a vaccination, or not, the choice lies with the individual.

 

If an individual doesn't want to get a vaccination, they have to accept whatever goes with that choice. No other person can bear the consequences of that choice, one the person who makes that choice.

 

If an individual wants to  get a vaccination, that is their choice, and they too have to own whatever goes with that choice.

 

You make your choice and live with it. I'll support your right to make whatever choice you choose, and wish you the best.

 

I've made mine, as all the millions of choices I have made in my life. I own those choices, and hold no one else accountable for them.

I'll keep it simple,bullshit.  "they have to accept whatever goes with that choice"  So you have to choose but MUST ACCEPT the consequences of that choice ????? Think about that for a minute.

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5 minutes ago, john510 said:

I'll keep it simple,bullshit.  "they have to accept whatever goes with that choice"  So you have to choose but MUST ACCEPT the consequences of that choice ????? Think about that for a minute.

Thought about it every time I have had to choose between two or more options.

 

I’ve made countless choices in my lifetime. Some choices had favorable results, others, not so much.

 

Everyone is always totally at choice, whether they will admit it or not.

 

Even if you choose not to make a choice, you still have made a choice.
 

 

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2 minutes ago, Racer X 69 said:

Thought about it every time I have had to choose between two or more options.

 

I’ve made countless choices in my lifetime. Some choices had favorable results, others, not so much.

 

Everyone is always totally at choice, whether they will admit it or not.

 

Even if you choose not to make a choice, you still have made a choice.
 

 

Thanks for the insight Geddy Lee.Have you ever had to make a choice that would involve turning your life upside down over a vaccination ? Are you being asked to get vaccinated and if you don't you get fired ? 

Edited by john510
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9 minutes ago, john510 said:Have you ever had to make a choice that would involve turning your life upside down over a vaccination ? Are you being asked to get vaccinated and if you don't you get fired ? 


I have had to make many choices when neither option was attractive or desirable. Many that resulted in situations that I didn’t like.

 

That’s life.

 

I don’t need to make the choice to get vaccinated to keep my job. I made the choice for myself, for my own reasons, months ago.

 

 I made an informed decision that I felt was the best for me.

 

 I don’t need anyone or any government to coerce me into making a choice.

 

 I am a freethinking individual, capable of managing my own affairs.

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58 minutes ago, john510 said:

I'll keep it simple,bullshit.  "they have to accept whatever goes with that choice"  So you have to choose but MUST ACCEPT the consequences of that choice ????? Think about that for a minute.

 

Unless you can change your mind later, (you may not have that option) you pretty much have to accept your choice in the face of unforeseen consequences or failure to think a decision out.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Racer X 69 said:


I have had to make many choices when neither option was attractive or desirable. Many that resulted in situations that I didn’t like.

 

That’s life.

 

I don’t need to make the choice to get vaccinated to keep my job. I made the choice for myself, for my own reasons, months ago.

 

 I made an informed decision that I felt was the best for me.

 

 I don’t need anyone or any government to coerce me into making a choice.

 

 I am a freethinking individual, capable of managing my own affairs.

 

True for anyone but even more poignant for those who oppose accepting the vax as opposed to those who got it. My choice places me outside government coercion but I still don't like seeing it applied to others with such a heavy hand. Some things are for our own good and the good of others.     

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1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

 Some things are for our own good and the good of others.     

That is the thing. 
 

Some people are only thinking about themselves, and unable to do what is best for the good of all people.

 

Selfish people who only care about themselves. Their self centered singleminded perspective prevents them from choosing a path that will be for the good of everyone.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Racer X 69 said:


I have had to make many choices when neither option was attractive or desirable. Many that resulted in situations that I didn’t like.

 

That’s life.

 

I don’t need to make the choice to get vaccinated to keep my job. I made the choice for myself, for my own reasons, months ago.

 

 I made an informed decision that I felt was the best for me.

 

 I don’t need anyone or any government to coerce me into making a choice.

 

 I am a freethinking individual, capable of managing my own affairs.

 

Congratulations. 

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33 minutes ago, Racer X 69 said:

That is the thing. 
 

Some people are only thinking about themselves, and unable to do what is best for the good of all people.

 

Selfish people who only care about themselves. Their self centered singleminded perspective prevents them from choosing a path that will be for the good of everyone.

 

 

And this brings us back to..... If you've been vaccinated you're safe and don't have to worry about Rona,or those that didn't get vaccinated.Right ? And in case you didn't know i CHOSE to get the vaccine even though i didn't have to.You sound like the typical liberal that thinks he knows what's best for everybody and wants to force it upon them. "some people are only thinking for themselves" LOL.

Edited by john510
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57 minutes ago, Racer X 69 said:

That is the thing. 
 

Some people are only thinking about themselves, and unable to do what is best for the good of all people.

 

Selfish people who only care about themselves. Their self centered singleminded perspective prevents them from choosing a path that will be for the good of everyone.

 

 

 

 People should think for themselves. Pretty damn hard to go along when every fiber in your being screams that it's wrong. Who decides the path that is for the good of everyone? Who is the impartial trusted arbiter? Well time is for one. Hindsight. Wouldn't be the first time the majority of the herd chose the wrong path and thundered over the cliff. Time and again history has been changed for good or bad by a single person who challenged the norm.

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The blind belief in this is the correct decision blows me away, it's like there is not even the slightest doubt or questioning?

 

Or is it more I have made this decision right or wrong and I don't want to go down alone? Or if there is no control group to compare against then there is no way to prove it was the wrong decision? 

 

I can not wrap my head around this mentality.  Every trial has a control group?? 100% vaccination rate doesn't leave much left does it. Unless there is a control group and it has been decided the plebs aren't in it? 

 

#eattheelitesfirst 

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27 minutes ago, Str8jacket said:

The blind belief in this is the correct decision blows me away, it's like there is not even the slightest doubt or questioning?

 

Or is it more I have made this decision right or wrong and I don't want to go down alone? Or if there is no control group to compare against then there is no way to prove it was the wrong decision? 

 

I can not wrap my head around this mentality.  Every trial has a control group?? 100% vaccination rate doesn't leave much left does it. Unless there is a control group and it has been decided the plebs aren't in it? 

 

#eattheelitesfirst 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Racer X 69 said:

That is the thing. 
 

Some people are only thinking about themselves, and unable to do what is best for the good of all people.

 

Selfish people who only care about themselves. Their self centered singleminded perspective prevents them from choosing a path that will be for the good of everyone.

 

 

 

Well under that logic you realize the next step is the Government saying: "Well you must donate blood" it is for the good of everyone, Or you must donate your organs when you die, it is for the good of everyone, or you must not eat meat, or own too much stuff, or live on land by yourself. etc...

 

FUCK THAT SOCIALIST NIGH COMMIE BULLSHIT. FUCK "FOR THE GOOD OF EVERYONE" as an excuse.

 

Some of the worst atrocities in history have been a Government trying to do something for the "good of everyone". 

 

This country (USA) is based on INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS not COLLECTIVISM. The point of a Constitutional Republic is to protect the rights of the minority from the majority and there is no smaller minority than the individual.

 

Did you know for a medical trial you can't even give a person more than a small gift card because it would be considered unethical coercion in making them make a choice about a medical decision? But you can threaten to take away their livelihood, threaten to remove them from polite society, and in other countries (Germany) prevent them from even entering grocery stores, to get a medical procedure and that is "not coercion". BULLSHIT that is the very definition of Coercion.

 

By your extremely simplistic and pedantic logic if I put a gun to your head and say "do this" you still made the choice. Threatening excessive punishment to achieve compliance but claiming you gave them "a choice" is not something the GOOD GUYS DO, that is what petty tyrants do.

 

 Even under the law "duress" is recognized as not allowing for a choice to be made.

 

Stop trying to rationalize your willingness to allow for petty tyrants to control other people just because you happen to agree with them.

WRONG IS STILL WRONG IF EVERYONE IS DOING IT. RIGHT IS STILL RIGHT IF NO ONE IS DOING IT.

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If a governor does not allow a business owner to require masks or vaccination for customers, and proposes fines or penalties if they do, coercing the business owner? Yes. Is the choice being taken away from the business owner?  Yes.  Fuck that commie bullshit.

 

Copied from above “By your extremely simplistic and pedantic logic if I put a gun to your head and say "do this" you still made the choice. Threatening excessive punishment to achieve compliance but claiming you gave them "a choice" is not something the GOOD GUYS DO, that is what petty tyrants do.”

 

And, “ Even under the law "duress" is recognized as not allowing for a choice to be made.”

 

And, “Stop trying to rationalize your willingness to allow for petty tyrants to control other people just because you happen to agree with them.”

 

And, “WRONG IS STILL WRONG IF EVERYONE IS DOING IT. RIGHT IS STILL RIGHT IF NO ONE IS DOING IT.”


Not copied from above. What happened to the business owner’s individual choice? What is the difference between this commie bullshit and the other commie bullshit? One government controlling a person’s actions is another person’s commie bullshit.

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How about the government/ governor minds their own business and fucks right off and let's the business owner demand what ever they like and the customer the choice to choose wether or not to spend their money there? Seems reasonable?

If an employee doesn't feel safe because everyone isn't vaccinated then they can quit. I mean it's their choice. No one is forcing them to stay? No one even needs to be penetrated against their will. 

 

I've quit job places that were unsafe, fuck I'm going to lose my work over this bullshit. the way this country is going I might not even be able to go the shops to buy food. But hey you know, it's my choice starve or science experiment that works so well everyone who has had it is fucking terrified of the thing it is supposed to be so good at protecting you from. 

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Isnt a government that controls everything you do essentially the definition of "commie bullshit"?

2 hours ago, Dav said:

One government controlling a person’s actions is another person’s commie bullshit.

 

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