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TheBirdistheWord

Front X member control arm nuts not completely seated with GTX2 control arms

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So, I reused the stock 24mm mounting nuts and big washers when I installed these new arms.  It was an adventure getting it aligned at big O but after taking some direction from me they got it done. 

I've noticed after driving and inspecting that even though they don't appear to be backing off yet, the big mounting nuts are only engaging about 3/4 of the threads. It almost appears as if they've backed off but I don't recall what they looked like when I first installed them, I just wrenched until they were tight. 

Should I have left the big washers off since these arms use spherical joints in place of rubber? Can I get more clearance on the bolt if I back off the smaller nut on the front of the x member and dead blow them through the xmember? Both?

 

I'm hesitant to continue driving it until I can sort this out. Any input is appreciated.

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Try to tighten them again to confirm that they did or did not back off. Hell spin them off and use red locktite on the threads. I believe they should be tightened with the vehicle resting on it's wheels.

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Stock crossmember & bolts?  If so, they are a special bolt with a tapered seat.  You DO NOT want to loosen the front nut and drive them back, as that will loosen the seat of the tapered part next to the control arms and could lead to a bolt failure, especially since it's only in single shear.  Below is a picture of the bolts.  The tapered part goes into a tapered hole in the crossmember through-tube, giving the bolt a lot more strength than if it were the same smaller diameter throughout.

 

$_20.PNG

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11 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Try to tighten them again to confirm that they did or did not back off. Hell spin them off and use red locktite on the threads. I believe they should be tightened with the vehicle resting on it's wheels.

I tried tightening again, albeit the car was on stands.  Drivers side is damn tight already, passenger side just keeps spinning. Didn't know that bit about the suspension needing to be engaged for tightening. I think I'll back em off use some loctite and try again with stands under the control arms.  I'm almost inclined to replace the nuts if I'm taking them off anyway.  

 

3 hours ago, thisismatt said:

Stock crossmember & bolts?  If so, they are a special bolt with a tapered seat.  You DO NOT want to loosen the front nut and drive them back, as that will loosen the seat of the tapered part next to the control arms and could lead to a bolt failure, especially since it's only in single shear.  Below is a picture of the bolts.  The tapered part goes into a tapered hole in the crossmember through-tube, giving the bolt a lot more strength than if it were the same smaller diameter throughout.

 

 

Copy that, yes stock x member and bolts.  thank you for saving me the hassle of repairing the damage from figuring that out the hard way. 

 

Anyone have any insight on if this will effect my alignment? I have a warranty from big O and it looks like I'll be needing to replace the strut cartridges very soon.  So paired with that I'm sure I'll need to go back.

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Post a picture of the current situation.

 

The reason you need to tighten them when the car is sitting on its wheels is for the stock rubber bushings you want them to be in their normal resting position. If you tighten them down while it's up on a jack then the rubber bushings will be overly twisted when in the resting position, causing unwanted preload and bushings wear/failure.

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Same with leaf springs, shocks and 4  link suspensions. 

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I'll try to upload some photos tomorrow, I kind of hate dealing with the 3rd party photo hosting required by the forum. Does the procedure of tightening with load on the suspension still apply to spherical bushings? 

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42 minutes ago, TheBirdistheWord said:

I'll try to upload some photos tomorrow, I kind of hate dealing with the 3rd party photo hosting required by the forum. Does the procedure of tightening with load on the suspension still apply to spherical bushings? 

 

No, it does not. It only applies to rubber bushings. If you want you can email me pics at yumspam@objext.com and I can put them up

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14 hours ago, thisismatt said:

 

No, it does not. It only applies to rubber bushings. If you want you can email me pics at yumspam@objext.com and I can put them up

Email sent. Thank you! From the photos I took, It actually does look like all of the the threads on the bolt are engaged. Seems there is a "lip" on the nut that isn't.  If there's nothing alarming about this Ill just loctite and call it good. 

Edited by TheBirdistheWord

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It's not engaging the nylon (nylock) portion. I would consider cutting the spacers down. They seem excessively long. The washers are good protection if the spherical bearing ever fails.

 

IMG_20191029_102909-1024x768.jpg

 

IMG_20191029_102736-768x1024.jpg

 

IMG_20191029_102543-768x1024.jpg

 

IMG_20191029_102858-768x1024.jpg

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I wonder if this is something techno toy tuning has overlooked or might already have a solution for, I'll contact them to find out.  If not, I'll grind down the spacers a bit.

 

What about a lower profile nut? 

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I would just do a smaller spacer on the back as you don't really need all that clearance. But yes, check with techno toy tuning and see what they say

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If I remember correctly, the spacers are integrated into the bushing, I don't know if I'm able to just replace one side individually.  But I agree, the length on the back end causes the clearance between CA and linkage to be a bit tight.  the I emailed TTT the same photos, I'll follow up tomorrow. 

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Did you use vice-grips on the adjusters/jamb nuts, or was that Big O?  

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That was big O.  that was also the point I started giving them "some" direction. I informed them ahead of time that it was highly modified and didn't want them to try if they weren't confident about it. Even said that directly to their "master mechanic" and he ended up tapping out when I got more involved after he mangled the hardware.  He handed the job off to a younger employee who was a fan of the car. 

 

Whatever, nothing is broken. Tried to save some time instead of bringing it to a proper shop in San Jose. Live and learn, I call that damage a "convenience tax"

 

Is there a specific procedure to tighten the crossmember pin/bolt to ensure the proper amount of threads are available for installing the CA?

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Just got a response from TTT, they said to make sure the crossmember bolts are installed properly. If that doesn't work they will make me new spacers. 

 

I just removed the 22mm mount bolts. Passenger side was stripped, going to grab some new hardware and try it again. Just tried he Depot with no luck, anyone know where to get big mount nuts?

Edited by TheBirdistheWord

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I asked TTT about the stock washers and they confirmed that they can be removed.  To avoid uninstalling the entire assembly, I just tried it without the outer washer and the top of the bolt is now flush with the top of the nylon lock portion of the new nuts I just bought. Nice and secure, with some loctite I'm calling it good unless that sounds suspect to anyone?

 

Thanks for the input!

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The only issue is if the spherical bearing/rod end/heim joint fails then the arm could completely pop off the bolt. They're called safety washers.

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Oh Deng.  That's good to know, I guess I'll be good to put around for now, but I should address it before I start racing.  I'll ask TTT tuning for a different bushing since they offered.  

Thanks!

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FWIW, here's some measurements of mine. These were made by DP Racing using high misalignment Aurora rod ends, and designed to use the stock 510 inner and outer washers on the LCA stud. 

YGBJ76q.jpg

 

5gmpmeO.jpg

 

This view shows the locknut is fully engaged:

Lr9QqMS.jpg

 

This view shows that with the locknut fully engaged, there's still room for the missing inner washer (I couldn't scrounge one up for this photo, but you can see them in Matt's pic above):

13dAWow.jpg

 

I notice that your setup does not use the special inner washers with the concave taper on one side, but the bushing still seats against the crossmember, so the ID must be opened or tapered to fit over the taper in the stud? Odd.  If I were you I would shorten the bushings until you get full thread engagement with the outer washer in place. As mentioned above, that washer is your safety backup in case that rod end blows out.  

Edited by Tedman

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36 minutes ago, Tedman said:

 

I notice that your setup does not use the special inner washers with the concave taper on one side, but the bushing still seats against the crossmember, so the ID must be opened or tapered to fit over the taper in the stud? Odd.  If I were you I would shorten the bushings until you get full thread engagement with the outer washer in place. As mentioned above, that washer is your safety backup in case that rod end blows out.  

 

Now that you mention it, it looks like maybe he's not using the stock bolts?

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When I bought the Car it came with the original L16 and auto transmission. The suspension was untouched besides ZX struts. When I was messing with it today I confirmed there IS an inner safety washer installed.  I'm assuming they're the stock bolts, what makes them look non stock? 

 

I'll likely hear from TTT about spacers tomorrow.  It'd be nice to leave the arm on and just get away with replacing/grinding the outer spacers

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I have the futofab ones and they have taken it one step further, they use even larger rod ends and use stepped spacers that go inside the rod end and have dust boots. perfect fit.

 

i know this doesnt help you but just sayin.

 

for yours I would just cut the outer spacer in half (the nut side) so the nylon engages and call it good.

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My old DP Racing setup pictured above and again below also has bushings that are stepped to slip fit inside the rod end and fit on the LCA stud with zero slop. The bushings are machined to adapt the 5/8" rod end to the 14mm LCA stud. 

4yA3AkF.jpg

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These units have stepped spacers as well. TTT said the only thing these spherical bushing will do when failed are make a clunking noise. Insists that I'm fine without outer washer.  I'll grind down the steps spacers and install the concave washers before I do any competitive driving. 

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