rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 First Post! I am looking to create CAD DWGs/3D Models of the OE spec frame configurations for the 620/720 Frames. I will share the resulting OE drawings with members for errors wrt the actual Frames, and correct the drawings for reposting. Following consensus, I will be creating 1-2 supplemental drawings/models for each frame configuration that improve upon the OE specification (materials/gauge/detail attachment ...) The pressing issue is that I have been unable to locate reasonable top/side vu dimensional/arrangement images of the 620/720 frames similar to the 521 and newer Nissans. If these images do not exist, guidance wrt similar (521/D21) frame data drawings is very much appreciated ... 🙂 My objective is to be able to use a machine, I am currently developing for another project, to “print” a complete frame, with equivalent OE stiffness but reduced mass (~35%), using non-metallic structural composites (NOT FDM). I am hoping that with member dimensional consensus, a proper Drawing and CAD (stp) model can be made available, and be useful to supporting members r; 1 Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Have you looked in the Nissan FSM? (factory service manual) NOT Haynes or Chiltons, but the Nissan published one? Lots of pictures and dimentions. 3 Quote Link to comment
mklotz70 Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Sounds like an interesting project!! Quote Link to comment
MikeRL411 Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Be very careful with this good idea! NISSAN is on an intellectual property rampage and recently forced NICOclub site to remove all their reprints of past NISSAN/Datsun service manuals. 1 Quote Link to comment
]2eDeYe Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 What kind of printer are you using that can print 170" x 50"? What type of material? Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Maybe they could stop e-bay selling old manuals also? assholes. Surely this was a newer 2000 and up vehicles and not some POS Datsuns. Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Thanks for the responses folks ... DATZENMIKE: I am trying to determine if 620/720 frame drawings of 521 FSM (BF-1, BF-2) type and fidelity exist ... the 620 FSM BF-1. BF-2, BF-3 images are of minimal help in defining “Fabrication” DWGs/MDLs. MKLOTZ70: 🙂 ... it will get real interesting when the eMonoFrames are defined ...Leaf Drive Train(s) in FWD/RWD/AWD with repackaged Battery Cases (40/80kWh) ,-) MIKERL411: For me personally, this project is an Engineering Exercise of new materials/processes for Structural Vehicle applications requiring Crash Simulations and Physical Build/Test correlations. I will be using OEM dimensional data as a reference to create new IP ... which should be of interest to more OEMs than just NISSAN ... if not then it will, at the least have presented Open Source “what if” information. r/ 1 Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 J2eDeYe: ... yes 170”x50” is by current sizes big, but 5mx2mx2m “print” volumes are bigger 🙂 These large format machines are in design (Scale-Up) at the moment. The “printing”materials are proprietary and not publicly available. (my retirement fund) Z build rates of 7-10mm/min, irrespective of X/Y dimensions .... yes .. pre-postcure build takts of 50min for a 1 pc 620/720 Frame ... r/ Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Nissan might have them but no reason to publish them then or now. Not seeing a big market for 521/620/720 frames. How about fenders, doors, rocker panels and hoods? Quote Link to comment
Stoffregen Motorsports Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 I don't see a problem using the dimensions of the frame, just not the printed material, which is licensed. Dimensions of the frame, if slightly modified, would not be intellectual property of Nissan. If you sold them using the Nissan/Datsun brand, then I do see a problem. Think Shelby Cobra or Ferrari GTO. Many replicas have been made, just not using the brand's original name. I am not a lawyer, but my dad is, and we've discussed things like this before. 1 Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Agreed ... Nissan might have them but there are no missing BF pages so ... maybe they just ran out of time to meet the publishing Deadline ... Agreed ... 521/620/720 are of minimal demand ... but that is what is of development value for Structural Technical Demonstrators, particularly In-Service accessibility issues (Lame Solutions by designers ... 🙂 1pc Body/Cab/Closures are definitely “printable” however require suboptimal attachments to OEM Frames or adjacent panels. Better solution is to “group” the body panels/Cab into major assemblies, thus reducing interface attachments.. Of note: this mfg process requires NO product specific tooling to provide a 25-50μm surface finish on ALL surfaces, including Thru-Holes. And for those Cost Nay Sayers ... 🙂 current RC (Recurring Cost) is between 50-75$/kg of post-cured net printed product (programming $ excluded). The variance is due to specific reinforcement materials/forms. I will in a followup post provide an easy part weight /cost estimation calculation for equivalent stiffness determination. I am actually curious as to how many members are actually willing to replace their frame with a non-oem unit ... 1 Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) Stoffregen: That is my understanding as well, although I have have over years used a > 10% volumetric differential to ensure “uniqueness” ....from a seed design. Of note, I am a Product Developer, not a manufacturer ... so I build/test/validate my designs, and then license them to qualified interested parties ... this is a result of my desire to continue being the “Captain” of just a row boat ... 🙂 Edited September 8, 2019 by rowen01960 Spelling 2 Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 So, first up appears to be a 521LWB, followed by a 521SWB frame. I am hoping that given the similar 620 General Arrangement iso drawing, I can find commonality (non dimensional) with the 521. I will post the 521LWB/SWB conceptual GA pdfs later this week. Still looking for 720 STD/Long /Delux Frame Alignment Drawings ... Quote Link to comment
mklotz70 Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 If I'm understanding the specs your stating of the printing.....wow...very impressive! The 521 and pre-disc 620 frames are the same.....other than they used metric hardware on the 620. The disc 620's were disc and I'm pretty sure the frame got widened. The disc 620 and early 720 frames should be nearly the same. 1 Quote Link to comment
Stoffregen Motorsports Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Is there a market here? I am of the opinion that if you build it, they will come. In other words, there are probably hundreds of these old truck owners out there that would build them if there was a better aftermarket. Judging the viability based on current drivers is probably not going to be all that accurate. Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 30 years I have struggled with increasing material deposition rates of 1-2kg/h (typ prepreg) ... AM (additive manufacturing) permits up to 300kg/h, provided the reduced cured material stiffness is considered. The current Sintering and FDM machines doe not provide adequate deposition rates. Thanks for the guidance ... 🙂 Quote Link to comment
]2eDeYe Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 What kind of section sizes are you planning to use? Replicating tube structure or organic shapes? Any examples of prints? I have portions of a 620 KC frame modeled. Essentially body mount point cloud, rear frame section and front crosmember/bumper mount. None of my projects have required the front frame section or suspension mounts. Quote Link to comment
]2eDeYe Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 1 hour ago, mklotz70 said: The disc 620's were disc and I'm pretty sure the frame got widened. The disc 620 and early 720 frames should be nearly the same. All three of my 620 frames measure the same and at least one is a drum and another a disc (not sure what the 4x4 frame started out as lol) Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 J2eDeYe: To do this correctly, means establishing a validated BaseLine Model for the 620, something that closely resembles the OEM product. This will therefore be a Stiffness driven design, something that a limiting load can be applied to a physical OEM product and provide a measurable deflection, to which I can correlate my FEA model to. When I am within 10% of of the test values, I can reasonably assume that the FEA model represents the real thing. One correlation has occurred the BL Model can then be copied and digitally modified with SXN Form/area/material changes. And expect reasonable physical responses ... response “marker” tests will be necessary in critical (safety) zones. Any X/Y/Z coordinates for a 620 frame config would be greatly appreciated. (Within 0.25”) 🙂 I can work with ROM (Rough order Magnitude) values at this point. The numbers will settle down once things get stitched together ... My General Arrangement Drawings are typically a Top Level ICD (Interface Control Document) defining HDPT coordinates, Fastener Clearances. The geometry locating the HDPTs is defined from the Front Axle , wall thicknesses are nominally dimensioned via SXN Details. The 521LWB will be available late this week. Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 2 hours ago, rowen01960 said: Agreed ... Nissan might have them but there are no missing BF pages so ... maybe they just ran out of time to meet the publishing Deadline ... Agreed ... 521/620/720 are of minimal demand ... but that is what is of development value for Structural Technical Demonstrators, particularly In-Service accessibility issues (Lame Solutions by designers ... 🙂 1pc Body/Cab/Closures are definitely “printable” however require suboptimal attachments to OEM Frames or adjacent panels. Better solution is to “group” the body panels/Cab into major assemblies, thus reducing interface attachments.. Of note: this mfg process requires NO product specific tooling to provide a 25-50μm surface finish on ALL surfaces, including Thru-Holes. And for those Cost Nay Sayers ... 🙂 current RC (Recurring Cost) is between 50-75$/kg of post-cured net printed product (programming $ excluded). The variance is due to specific reinforcement materials/forms. I will in a followup post provide an easy part weight /cost estimation calculation for equivalent stiffness determination. I am actually curious as to how many members are actually willing to replace their frame with a non-oem unit ... 2 hours ago, rowen01960 said: So, first up appears to be a 521LWB, followed by a 521SWB frame. I am hoping that given the similar 620 General Arrangement iso drawing, I can find commonality (non dimensional) with the 521. I will post the 521LWB/SWB conceptual GA pdfs later this week. Still looking for 720 STD/Long /Delux Frame Alignment Drawings ... 1 hour ago, rowen01960 said: 30 years I have struggled with increasing material deposition rates of 1-2kg/h (typ prepreg) ... AM (additive manufacturing) permits up to 300kg/h, provided the reduced cured material stiffness is considered. The current Sintering and FDM machines doe not provide adequate deposition rates. Even if free, it would be cheaper and easier to weld up a Datsun frame. 3 hours ago, datzenmike said: Nissan might have them but no reason to publish them then or now. Not seeing a big market for 521/620/720 frames. How about fenders, doors, rocker panels and hoods? Need a driver's side 710 front fender. Body parts.... now there's something that is in danger of damage and need replacing. 1 1 Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Ah yes ... but then you end up with the same weight, corrosion and NVH issues ... 🙂 these are the improvements I am interested in demonstrating ... Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 Send Photos of the detached PAX fender, ensure as close as possible orthogonal/normal/perpendicularity for all 6 images, plus I require 2 linear (X/Y) dimensions preferably from Attachment Holes. Of couse if you have access to a Faro Laser Scan Head .... 🙂 Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 So they're printed in steel??? Plastic would be fine. 1 Quote Link to comment
rowen01960 Posted September 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) One could print/sinter parts using powdered metal .. but very slow deposition rates (<1-2kg/h) , and very expensive (250-1k$ kg) ... I develop nonmetallic Polymer Matrix Composites with Anisotropic/Orthotropic yarns of Quartz, UHMWPE, Carbon, and Aramid Fibres or Isotropic Particulate reinforced products. ... these are sort of “plastic” laminates. Body Panels that are detachable are, for the most part semi-structural as they are only required to manage self generated loads. Cabs, Boxes, Frames, Suspension Components are structural, as they are general part of the load path on the way to the tires, other vehicle, wall or tree .. So structural parts can not be “finessed” or they will break (benignly or catastrophically). Semi structural parts generally fail due to poor design/manufacturing or abuse and result in non life-critical consequences. They also usually comprise less than 20% of total vehicle mass ... So I tackle the heavy/hard stuff, much more challenging and much bigger mass reduction ... 🙂 Edited September 8, 2019 by rowen01960 Clarification Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted September 8, 2019 Report Share Posted September 8, 2019 But less market. Quote Link to comment
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