Brake lines

[Turbosauce74]

Upgraded to dual caliper z32 brakes in the rear, but have a major issue as my original brake lines are unusable from the proportioning valve back. Front is fine. I know all the fittings are m10x1.0 sae flare. My question is, where can I get proper tee fittings and flex hose to go from the frame to the axle. 

I was trying to find a way to use -3an but can't seem to find fittings, especially ones I can mount to a tab on the frame. I know I am not the first person to do this or add in a hydraulic hand brake, and I have looked at every fitting on summit at least twice by now. 

Thanks. 

[BrandonS]

I'm not sure the size of the stock lines so I don't what you would need to get it from that to -3an.  If they are 3/16 you're good to go since 3/16" and -3an are for all purposes the same.  If you want to go with AN fittings you'll need to redo any flares you want an AN fitting on.  They are 37* flares vs standard 45* flares.  For a flaring tool that isn't over the top expensive, it seems the Rigid 41162 or 377 (same tool just different numbers) gets good reviews.  It's what I plan on using.  You can also spend 3 times more and go with Eastwood's Solution, but it's expensive because it comes with the 45* die and then you need to purchase separately or as a kit all together (same price) the 37* die for around ~$100.  So with that being said, your connections off of your hard line will require you put a nut on and then a sleeve, much like this ebay item.  Once you have the hose terminated in a connector like that you just find the appropriate tee you need in -3an and ignore the 3/16", tube nuts, regular brake type fittings.  Here's a tee, search this part on Summit if you prefer to buy there, I think they sell Russell fittings.

 

Best luck with your project.  I'm going to be doing much the same here soon when I have to plumb my new brakes and airline.  Going to go AN fittings as well.

Edited August 29, 2019 by BrandonS

[mklotz70]

If you can't cut/flare your own lines....plenty of vids on youtube about how to do it.....any parts store should have pre-made lengths of brake line about 5' long.  Get whatever lengths it takes and the unions (butt connectors) to go with them.  Personally, I'd invest in a decent flaring tool and custom make your own.  

 

This vid should help give you an idea on how to flare, but the camera guy sucks....so you'll want to find some other vids to reference, too. 

 

[datzenmike]

Measure the old one with a piece of string or flatten out straight and buy a pre-made one same length or just over. Bend around a baseball bat. 

[Turbosauce74]

I have a snap on flaring and bending tool, I just want to make sure I buy all the proper fittings. Can't seem to find them all anywhere. 

[mklotz70]

Most parts stores should have what you need.  3/16" line.  Summit, Speedway....and other online stores have them too.

 

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/shop/inverted-flare-fittings~14-3-475-17359

[BrandonS]

16 hours ago, Turbosauce74 said:

I have a snap on flaring and bending tool, I just want to make sure I buy all the proper fittings. Can't seem to find them all anywhere. 

 

Just make sure it is a 37 degree flare, you can't do 45 degree, it won't seal correctly.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yes, flare between AN and inverted flare is different.

 

Summit Racing has just about any brake adapter fitting you will need. https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/brake-fittings?N=part-type%3Abrake-fittings&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending

[GT2]

So correct me if I'm missing something in the above statements, But, You don't double flare a hard line at 37d to directly connect to an an -3 fitting.

You double flare at 45d (sae) and connect that to a inverted flare to -3 fitting. From that -3 (37d) fitting you connect a -3 hose. That hose bridges the gap between the body and axle and connects to another -3 to inverted flare fitting ( usually a tee ) at the axle.

Watch my Road race chassis rebuild video #8, it might help.

Edited September 4, 2019 by GT2

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

You can use an inverted (double) flare to -3 AN adapter or a -3 AN tube nut and sleeve with single 37 degree flare, then a -3 AN union to connect to the soft hose.

 

AN tube nut connections do not get a double flare, but a single 37 degree flare. Some old timers will solder the tube sleeve to the line, but you don't need to do that.

 

Two different ways to accomplish the same task. I prefer inverted flare fittings on the road cars/trucks, but I would use all AN fittings on a race car.

 

IMPORTANT NOTE - if using stainless hard line, DO NOT use a tubing cutter to cut the line. Use a hack saw or band saw to cut it then clean up the cut with a file or belt sander. The tubing cutter will work harden the end of the stainless tubing, causing it to crack when you flare it.

[GT2]

My personal opinion, but I wouldn't trust a single flare brake line. Especially on a race car.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

It's just not industry standard to double flare a tube for use with an AN fitting. Aircraft hydraulics are a good example of how long this practice has been in use.

 

I learned a lot about specialty plumbing from a guy named Ted Shulgin. His father was the famous mad scientist named Alexander Shulgin who did a lot of research with MDMA and LSD. Ted died a few years back. His wealth of knowledge was extensive, and I paid attention. Thank you Ted.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Besides, I don't think a double flare will physically fit inside an AN tube nut.

[GT2]

23 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

It's just not industry standard to double flare a tube for use with an AN fitting. Aircraft hydraulics are a good example of how long this practice has been in use.

 

I learned a lot about specialty plumbing from a guy named Ted Shulgin. His father was the famous mad scientist named Alexander Shulgin who did a lot of research with MDMA and LSD. Ted died a few years back. His wealth of knowledge was extensive, and I paid attention. Thank you Ted.

Good point,

I guess I just visualized some young inexperienced guy jamming a steel line on an aluminum AN fitting. 

 

I did mean double flare to adapter fitting, not directly to AN. 😉

Edited September 6, 2019 by GT2

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Right, aluminum fittings. It is common to use aluminum fittings on a race car, but I don't feel good about that either. I've seen them snap off where they go into the calipers and in other places. I prefer steel or stainless fittings. The larger tube nuts come in aluminum, stainless or zinc plated steel, but I think -3 AN only comes in steel or stainless.

 

On that note, I am continually amazed at how racers re-use aluminum fittings. Look under the hood of some of the finest race cars and you will find faded and beat up AN fittings.

[G-Duax]

Automotive double flares are 45 degree, AN is  of course 37 degree.

You can't interchange them.

 

On a side note, stainless is a real pain in the back side to work with, the new copper/nickel tubing isn't, flares much easier.

Take time, and waste a few inches of tube, and practice doing the flares, before making a line that will be on the vehicle.

 

Most well stocked auto stores carry a good selection of premade brake lines (strait) in metric, with nuts on them already, so all you need to do is add a couple of bends on simple lines. Just make sure you get the correct pitch threads on the nuts.

Some times I buy one that is way too long, so I only need to do one flare, and then have another left over for down the line.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

A good flaring tool also helps make solid connections. I use the hydraulic mastercool set.

[MikeRL411]

8 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

A good flaring tool also helps make solid connections. I use the hydraulic mastercool set.

 

A bit of an outside remark.  In fitting up spacecraft lines [especially Helium lines] it is current practice to use powered flaring tools.  Manual tools leave chatter marks and provide a built in leak path.  You will not be plumbing Helium, but why not make a superior connection?

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

My statement should have been that using a cheap flaring tool, you're just asking for leaks. It is so hard to get them centered perfectly.

 

One trick I learned is to leave the second flare just a little proud, and let the tightening of the nut bring it home.

[demo243]

On 9/7/2019 at 1:01 PM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

One trick I learned is to leave the second flare just a little proud, and let the tightening of the nut bring it home.

 

This trick is huge!

 

When I redid all the brake lines on my 510, I used the new NiCopper tubing -- which is great, very user friendly from both a bending and flaring standpoint.  Thankfully I read about that trick somewhere ahead of time and it really helps make the connection better- almost like custom fitting each flare to its connection

[DanielC]

"One trick I learned is to leave the second flare just a little proud, and let the tightening of the nut bring it home. "

 

Please explain exactly you mean by this.

Pictures would be wonderful!

[demo243]

16 minutes ago, DanielC said:

"One trick I learned is to leave the second flare just a little proud, and let the tightening of the nut bring it home. "

 

Please explain exactly you mean by this.

Pictures would be wonderful!

 

By nature a double flare is a two step process. The first compressed the tube to create the outer wall of the flare, and the second collapses the tube to fold in on itself to finish it.

 

 

By not fully completing the second flare, it leaves the folded over portion unfinished so when you tighten down the assembly the seat finishes off the folded over portion only as far as it needs to. 

 

Doing this helps the flare match the seat better for a tighter seal. 

 

Not the most eloquent way of saying it....  but hope that helps makes sense.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by demo243

[DanielC]

Thank you!

[demo243]

3 hours ago, DanielC said:

Thank you!

 

NP 

 

If your doing brake lines I highly suggest the NiCopp lines. You can get em from summit, jegs or even orielly.

 

 

[DanielC]

This is one of my bookmarks in my computer.

https://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/JEGS-NiCopp-Nickel-Copper-Brake-Lines/2111534/10002/-1?Ns=P_Margin|0||P_SKU|0