Cam sprocket spells trouble

[CamoKing]

Here I go again asking for your indulgence in my pursuit of a refurbished '82 720, 4X4, Z22.    Ratsun  is a great source of information and advice.  Cudos to all who participate and perpetuate this site.

 

Well I finally put the head back on today; torqued methodically.  Then, struggling to get the cam sprocket back on, it became clear that the likelihood of  chain tensioner slippage was high.  I am able to get the sprocket to 'hang' on the cam peg, but can't muscle it any further.   It is almost there but this does not seem acceptable.   Tomorrow, I will  challenge the tensioner to a wrestling match?!!?....

 

So, if I have to go to the trouble of removing the timing cover, do I have to remove the head and get a new gasket?    OR, Can I just loosen all the head bolts and leave it that way for the time it takes to get the chain tensioner back in position? IS a just installed head gasket reusable??  Thanks.

Edited June 19, 2019 by CamoKing
More info/questions

[Draker]

I wouldn't remove the cover yet. Stick a pry bar down the inside of the cover and see if you can force the tensioner back in. It may have slipped out a bit. If it popped out, you should be able to eyeball it. 

[Draker]

Head gasket is junk if you remove the head. 

 

Literally did this on a motorcycle today. Installed headgasket yesterday due to burning coolant, still burnt coolant. Pulled head today and junked the gasket. It sucks.. but that's how it goes.

 

Sometimes it's a bitch to get the chain back on. Tight fit. Just try to get a little more slack by compressing the tensioner very very carefully. Shine a flashlight down there and see what's goin on.

[datzenmike]

Once the tensioner is out of it's holder it's out for good. Prying on it might distort the spring.

 

 

I think you can just loosen off the torque on the head bolts but not really needed. Engine was never started. You have to take the oil pan bolts out around the front so loosen several down each side and the timing cover should, with difficulty, slide out to the front to get at the timing chain. If this is the case and the engine at TDC you can find the bright links and set them to the dots on the crank and cam sprocket. You can see one of the bright links in the above picture. There should be 38 links between on a Z22.

 

What did you use for blocking the tensioner?

[banzai510(hainz)]

As I mentioned before you can turn the cam clockwise and it will induce slack on the right side and give you hopefully enuffto lift the cam up a 1/16 of inch or so

 

youll figure it out.

 

key is to get that chain block wedge going down in there to push tensioner in all the way.  Amazon sells the z series and L series timming chain wedge

Edited June 19, 2019 by banzai510(hainz)

[CamoKing]

Mike, I used a wood block made to the dimensions in the workshop manual.  It apparently did not exert enough 'push' to hold the tensioner in.  ):  I'm just starting the day.  Will take all your recommendations to the truck.   Thanks for the help.

 

Maybe I DON't have to buy another head gasket, too.  What fun!

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by CamoKing
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[banzai510(hainz)]

I just noticed

How you get the sprocket on with the wood block being so long and maybe in the way?

 

 

jam tool all the way down so you see or feel that tensioner all the way IN. then put the sprocket on with your marked link to the same spot you marked and then lift up maybe use a big screw driver to help pull up the sprocket thru the cam or pull up with fingers to get on dowl. if tight try to induce slack by turning the cam to the right to induce slack on the tight side of the chain

 

here you go, look at the other photos of this ad. see how much shorter the tool is installed

https://www.amazon.com/Alltrade-648832-Nissan-Timing-Holding/dp/B0002Q8TVO/ref=sr_1_15?crid=1B56JKURNB9B2&keywords=datsun+timing+chain+tool&qid=1560956880&s=gateway&sprefix=datsun+timming+chain%2Caps%2C478&sr=8-15

Edited June 19, 2019 by banzai510(hainz)

[CamoKing]

Hi, Hainz.    I looped some bale wire under the chain and lashed it to the hood latch overhead,  keep tension.  Then pulled the wooden wedge/block out.  Worked the sprocket  on to my paint marks until it was almost in then looped some bale wire in its holes in the same fashion; allowing me to cut the bale wire from the chain itself.  All in all I thought it worked well and tension was maintained on the chain.  I think that my mistake was at the beginning where the wedge did not push against the tensioner enough......

 

Wow,  I see that the Alltrade Holder has a really nice contour to compress/conform much better.   Should have, could have , would have...thought I was doing OK.  Next time I'd use this (if there is a next time)...

Edited June 19, 2019 by CamoKing
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[banzai510(hainz)]

well its good to have the tool. I bought a bout 5 of them and gave them to others when they were cheap.

[Draker]

If he is able to get it even close to on the cam we know it's not popped out all the way. It likely just needs pushed in a tiny bit more.

 

The head gasket compresses when it's torqued. If you pull the head and try to reuse the gasket you are asking for trouble. Can it work, sure, can it fail? Definitely. Again, just look down there with a flashlight and see what's going on. It probably just needs a little persuasion. Try the simple stuff first.

[CamoKing]

   What is this?   The front pulley came off with 5 bolts  .                                                                                      

I've given up on trying to get the chain on.  THere is No slack and the links are being pushed together as seen down in this oily hole.  I've take on the challenge of removing the timing cover.

3 hrs into it; almost there.   I can free the cover now a little an see that the tension spring has slipped out of its retainer.   Almost there.....stuck with this piece on the crank shaft

 

 

What is the right way to get this off??

Thanks for your help...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[datzenmike]

I think you have unbolted the crank vibration damper. The crank pulley is a 27mm? bolt right in the center. Then just tap the back side of the pulley forward and it slowly moves off the crank.

 

The factory wedge does not hold the tensioner in. You hammer it down into the V of the chain till very tight and the chain can't move. When the cam sprocket is removed the chain can't slide down and bow out.

[datzenmike]

8 hours ago, Draker said:

 

 

The head gasket compresses when it's torqued. If you pull the head and try to reuse the gasket you are asking for trouble. Can it work, sure, can it fail? Definitely. Again, just look down there with a flashlight and see what's going on. It probably just needs a little persuasion. Try the simple stuff first.

 

My reasoning is that the Z24 is loosened and re torqued and it HAS been running. I wasn't suggesting the head be removed and if it hasn't been started the gasket shouldn't stick or de laminate or tear. Loosening should do no harm.

[banzai510(hainz)]

maybe you didn't jam the wood timming chain wedge down far enough that's why tensioer  popped out.

[CamoKing]

That is what I think, Hainz.  For all AMATEURS out there -- Be cautious when using the wood block/wedge method of hold the timing chain.  I was under the impression that the main point was to keep it from falling off the crank sprocket when , if fact, it is more important that the tensioner gets held tightly in place.

[CamoKing]

13 hours ago, datzenmike said:

I think you have unbolted the crank vibration damper. The crank pulley is a 27mm? bolt right in the center. Then just tap the back side of the pulley forward and it slowly moves off the crank.

 

The factory wedge does not hold the tensioner in. You hammer it down into the V of the chain till very tight and the chain can't move. When the cam sprocket is removed the chain can't slide down and bow out.

I did do the tapping thing, Mike, with a 10oz. non-marring dead blow hammer ---  no movement.   I might put the pulley back on a try again.  I just needed to know that this piece is indeed slid on probably with keyed ways and NOT threaded .  Thanks for your help.

[mike]

Future reference, not my idea, there were pics of it on here before the photobucket fiasco... Use a chunk of old garden hose folded in half and shove the loop end towards the tensioner/crank, just make sure its long enough to grab both ends when removing. The hose keeps the tensioner compressed and also fits snug between the chain, gives plenty of room for installing the cam gear and its easy to remove with a pair of channel locks...  Waaay easier and more secure than a wood block and its cheap/free.

 

A generic "peace sign" steering wheel puller will take that balancer pulley off... they just need a bit of a nudge sometimes. Put some tension on it with the puller and tap on/around the pulley with a brass hammer, it should slide right off. Im always leery of using just a puller to remove stuff, its too easy to break/bend important parts.

Edited June 21, 2019 by mike

[banzai510(hainz)]

Since your going to take the front cover off I would look for the brite links on the chain and put on dimples on sprockets and just match them up and your timed.  might be hard to see. But if a Japanese chain their will be brite or dark links. A lot of Taiwan chain there will be NOOOOO  brite links  all solid color.

 

be hones I would get a new slack side guide and tensioner  as these 2 parts were the most.

and if you ket a timming kit get a made in Japan set.  OSK or Beck Arnly perhaps                 Melling /Cloyes  do not buy!!!!!

Edited June 21, 2019 by banzai510(hainz)

[CamoKing]

                                                                                                                        

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the pointers, Mike, Hainz.  I got the timing cover off to find the tensioner was popped out for sure; and the spring bent!.  Now I find only one 'bright' link on the chain?  There should be a certain number of links between this bright one and another one, right??  If I place this link on the punch/dimple on the crank sprocket then I need 'X' number of links between it and the #3 point on the cam sprocket??  Without another bright link I am guessing.....

 

I did buy some new timing parts from AutoZone and ,  yes, the tensioner is CLOYES...( didn't see your post in time, Hainz)  ):

 

 

 

[datzenmike]

L16/18.......... 42 links

L20B............. 44 links

Z20/22......... 38 links

Z24............... 40 links

[CamoKing]

Thanks  <  Datzenmike.   I found the second bright link after bathing the chain...surprise!   There are 31 links between these two links, not 38.  What am I missing?  If one bright link sits on #2 punch mark of the cam sprocket and the other bright link engages the crank sprocket on its punch mark, then all is well?

 

Now I am questioning how one can remove/install the oil pump in ONE piece.  My manual suggest that the cross member under the front differential should be removed for clearance.   Not only is this difficult but  the obstacle really lies in the bracket that houses the cross member.  They are welded to the frame so not coming out.    I can insert the drive spindle part way and try to keep the two dots in line but, is there a better way?

[datzenmike]

Sprocket dots to bright links and good to go.

 

The L series are correct and from my FSMs. The Z series were from How To Keep Your Datsun On The Road? I do have several Z24 chains around and will check into this.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Oh boy...

 

Steep learning curve, but once you've had to deal with it, you won't make the same mistakes again.

 

[CamoKing]

One link down on the crank sprocket over the 'dimple' ------

 

 

 

 

       Found the BRIGHT Links.   Looks like there in the right place::

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

 

You got that right, Mr. --  Steeeeep learning curve!

Not out of the woods yet but feels much closer.  Still much to re-install.  The use of RTV gasket goo bugs me ..  I am under the assumption that all the gaskets I have to use are to be applied without RTV  -- Maybe in a few instances a dab here and there to hold things in place??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by CamoKing
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[datzenmike]

 

Loosen the right or slack side guide bolts above the tensioner, have someone push the tensioner in as far as it will go (left) while you push the guide as far to the right or opposite direction and tighten the bolts, then release the tensioner.

 

I hate TRV. Gaskets go on dry and there are a couple of dowels to hold it in place. You can see one in your picture. Put a dab of RTV in the two corners where the timing cover/block/head meet and the two where the timing cover/block and oil pan meet. If you did a good job cleaning... this is all you need. Chevy owners, on the other hand, just love to put RTV on with a butter knife and feel they haven't done a good job unless the entire tube is used up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I pulled this blue RTV booger out of a KA head. People..... what ever squashed out when you tighten the bolts up will also squash in. That's what gaskets are for for. Take note chevy owners!