280zx strut on 510 question

[vuedoo_sss7]

Have a 510 with 280zx fronts, can I do a Toyota 4x4 4piston brake/calipers upgrade on this like in a Z with the spacer? btw what's the caliper differences in a s12w and s13w will any of these calipers work? thanks

[datzenmike]

I don't believe so. The zx caliper is huge, it fits 14" rims and no one ever complains about it's stopping power.

[Bleach]

The 280Z and the 280ZX are different cars and have different struts/brakes.

 

The Toyota caliper upgrade you are referring to is only for the 1970-78 z-cars. The brakes you have are from the 280ZX made 1979-83

 

If you want to go further with stopping power, you may be looking at aftermarket solutions like Wilwood calipers and rotors made for the 280ZX. (1979-83 model)

[datzenmike]

THIS

 

Or the stock calipers made for the zx. The 280zx is at least 600 pounds heavier than the 510 so this much larger caliper and huge vented disc is more than plenty for stopping. Keep in mind the tire traction against the road is the limiting factor when braking and adding more caliper won't stop you any faster and adding more un-sprung weight should be avoided. To be fair though, larger brakes will absorb more heat and be more fade resistant but generally you would have to be racing to ever need this.   

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Some guys don't like the thought of a single piston caliper, which the ZX has. I agree, a nice multi piston caliper would look cool, but you really don't need it. Want it maybe, but need? No.

[vuedoo_sss7]

Well I plan to do a sr20det swap someday and I have this Toyota brake setup on my 240z. was just wonder if the 510 will work with the same setup. I have a 15'' rim.

[Bleach]

http://www.bleachgarage.com/z-brake-upgrade

 

Your question about calipers. I don't know what the S13w is for. The two that bolt on to the 240Z/280Z are either S12-8 or S12-W. My article above talks about the difference being width and the wider caliper can go over a thicker brake rotor.

I do not know of any other Toyota calipers that bolt on to any Z-car. I drove a 280ZX for many years and I did wonder about a cost-effective brake upgrade. I didn't find anything. I ended up just keeping the brakes that are on the car. My 280ZX was a 2+2 turbo so it was "faster" and one of the heaviest models.

 

One thing I have discovered is that larger heavy wheels really affect a car's performance. When I put bigger wheels on, the extra weight made it more difficult for the brakes to slow the car down and also made it harder to accelerate. If you want the best braking response, stick to good quality light weight 15" wheels. Also, the 280ZX brakes you have came stock with 14's so you can run 14 inch wheels if you want.

[datzenmike]

I was thinking any un-sprung increased mass makes it harder for the wheel to closely follow the bumps on the road. More mass = more inertia = tires loosing contact.

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Toyota 4x4 calipers essentially came in three varieties.

 

1- Solid axle pickup, 1979 to 1985 - 4 piston with 2 different size pistons, non vented rotor.

2- IFS 4 cyl pickup, 1986 to 1994 - 4 piston, 2 different size pistons, vented rotor

3- IFS V6 pickup, 1988 to 1994 - 4 piston, all pistons same diameter, vented rotor

 

FJ40s had solid rotors, FJ60/62s had vented rotors. For what it's worth, I have been using Tacoma/Tundra brake calipers and rotors on my FJ60/62 LS swap conversions. The calipers are beefier, but require an adapter plate.

 

Wheel weight is a good observation. I remember when I made the switch from 13" Libres to 13" Panasports on my 510 race car. There was definitely a noticeable difference in acceleration.

 

I saw some Libres for sale recently and the guy called them "JDM wheels". They were made by American Racing....

[Tom1200]

Potterfield makes a more aggressive street pad for 280ZX calipers, that will help the performance a bit as well.

 

Next if you go to larger calipers on the front what are you going to do about the rear brakes, you will in essence have massive fronts and tiny rear brakes. Potterfield has 510 brakes shoes in the same compound as the 280ZX pad I mentioned above. With the 280ZX calipers in front and 510 drums you likely have a mismatch already. Note you can use the larger wheel cylinders from the 240Z (7/8 vs 510 13/16), which will change the balance back to what it would have been stock.

 

With all that said Wilwood calipers are pretty reasonable (around $130-150 each for 2 piston) but you will need to make an adapter plate to fit them. You'll need to address the rear brakes with the Wilwoods as well.  If you're fitting rear discs to the car as part of the SR20 conversion then it's not an issue.

 

If this is a strictly street car we're talking about, I'd upgrade the pads and shoes and if that isn't enough for the SR20 powered car go to Wilwoods. The 4x4 calipers are boat anchors; the milled to fit 13" ZX calipers are 7lbs each, the Wilwoods are 5lbs and the 4X4 are something crazy like 12lbs each.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Totally agree. 4x4 calipers look cool, but aren't worth the weight. I do remember a long time ago, seeing some that were aluminum, but the guy who had them (on his 240Z) didn't know the application.

 

My old street 510 (with 210hp) had 280zx fronts with upgraded pads, and 240z finned aluminum drums also with upgraded shoes, but the wheel cylinders were stock 510. It worked great on both track and street. The 240z wheels cylinders may be a good idea though.

 

I would also install a brake proportioning valve. Wilwood makes a couple nice ones that are cheap and easy to install. Note - the 10mm thread valve that Wilwood sells uses a bubble flare instead of an inverted flare. Who does this? Lame...

[68Datsun510]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:26 AM, datzenmike said:

I was thinking any un-sprung increased mass makes it harder for the wheel to closely follow the bumps on the road. More mass = more inertia = tires loosing contact.

 

 

 

You are correct, it slows the suspensions ability to react quickly to bumps, rotational mass of heavy wheels also impairs braking and acceleration. 

[68Datsun510]

On 5/14/2019 at 1:31 PM, Tom1200 said:

Potterfield makes a more aggressive street pad for 280ZX calipers, that will help the performance a bit as well.

 

Next if you go to larger calipers on the front what are you going to do about the rear brakes, you will in essence have massive fronts and tiny rear brakes. Potterfield has 510 brakes shoes in the same compound as the 280ZX pad I mentioned above. With the 280ZX calipers in front and 510 drums you likely have a mismatch already. Note you can use the larger wheel cylinders from the 240Z (7/8 vs 510 13/16), which will change the balance back to what it would have been stock.

 

With all that said Wilwood calipers are pretty reasonable (around $130-150 each for 2 piston) but you will need to make an adapter plate to fit them. You'll need to address the rear brakes with the Wilwoods as well.  If you're fitting rear discs to the car as part of the SR20 conversion then it's not an issue.

 

If this is a strictly street car we're talking about, I'd upgrade the pads and shoes and if that isn't enough for the SR20 powered car go to Wilwoods. The 4x4 calipers are boat anchors; the milled to fit 13" ZX calipers are 7lbs each, the Wilwoods are 5lbs and the 4X4 are something crazy like 12lbs each.

 

R4-S for street is a fantastic pad, when cold it behaves like a semi metallic. Feed them heat and they come alive! 

[datzenmike]

The only trouble is, brakes are often NOT hot when you need them. On the highway you might drive for hours and then suddenly need them desperately. In town the braking isn't enough to warm them sufficiently. It's walking a tightrope. I selected a medium grade for medium driving.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Modern performance (not racing) brake pads are often as good as "normal" brake pads in low temperature situations, then much better when things get hot.

 

20 years ago, this was not the case, but brake technology has improved vastly since then.

 

I run Hawk "red" pads on my Cummins 2500 4x4. Those are the most aggressive pads they sell. I started using them for heavy towing, but around town, they work great too. They just get a bit noisy at times.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[Tom1200]

Mike the "S" in R4-S denotes it's a street pad, a lot of the vintage racers use them because they're kinder to stock rotors, as mentioned they work well cold but will still stand up to track duty.

 

I've been using craptisical brand from Rockauto but am switching over to the R4S pads & shoes; my 1622lb car doesn't tax the ZX calipers or the Z car alloy drums , even with my routinely having the brake and the gas on at the same time. 

 

I did have concerns that even with the aforementioned aggressive use that I wouldn't get true race pads fully up to temp. I'm looking for a little more initial bite than the pure street pads can't offer.

 

As an aside back in the mid 90's I was racing a showroom stock Miata and using it as a daily driver. When I got the car it had Hawk race pads on it, they worked fine on the street (no worse than stock cold) but the rear rotors wore out at the same rate as the pads! The fronts faired slightly better (1/2 - 2/3rds worn) so pad changes meant buying 4 rotors and pads.

[Tedman]

+1 on the Porterfield R-4S pads. Been using them for years on my 510s for street use. They are easy on the rotors, low dust, work well when cold, and have plenty of reserve for canyon carving. Honestly, I would run the full carbon R-4 compound on the street if they didn't dust the wheels and squeal so much when cold. They work as good or better than the -4S compound when cold, but fully handle the heat of full race conditions.