Re-engineing a Riley with a 210 engine and trans

[jagman]

Yes, I am putting a 210 engine in my Riley sedan for touring.  Years ago I was pit crew for a racing 210 and it had a replacement carb that I would like to get but don't remember what it was.  If anyone has recommendations I would appreciate hearing from you.  If anyone out there has motor mount brackets for the a15 I could use them as well.  Steve

[Tom1200]

First what model Riley? One Point Five? RMA RME? Elf Kestrel? Regardless I love Riley cars. The prewar stuff is super cool.

 

So to your question; if the 210 in question was an SCCA ITC what your looking for is a Weber 32/36 DGEV.  The Weber/Mikuni DCOE style carbs were used on GT-5 / GTL cars. Datsun1200.com has loads of info on A-series engines.

 

The key to A-series motors are the cylinder heads; the 210 emissions heads have a shrouded intake port that reall restricts flow.  If you can find an earlier oval port head from a B210 that's worth 10hp. The large over port GX heads are out there but expensive, just paid $650 for one and spent 25 hours prepping it (granted for a street car I wouldn't spend that much time porting it).

 

You should be able to get around 80hp at the wheels with a mild bit of tuning; Weber DGEV carb, mild camshaft and cleaning up the ports.

 

I'm pretty sure I've got an extra set of A15 motor mounts, I've got a race in a week and a half but after that I can probably dig them out.

[jagman]

Hi Tom1200,  My Riley is a 1951 RMB that originally came with the 2.5 liter engine. I am keeping the car as original as possible just swapping the horsepower to an engine I can get parts for on the road and that fits the engine compartment without modification of the firewall. The A15 engine is a perfect fit. The engine I am using came from a B210  SCCA ITC racer.  It was built as his spare engine 10 years ago. He sold the car but forgot he had the spare and I got it for the cost of the trip to get it.  If you have the mounts, let me know what you may want for them please.  Having them would help fab the new mounts for the Riley.

[Tom1200]

You can have the engine mounts for the cost to ship them. 

 

The carb will definitely be a Weber 32/36 DGV. In ITC trim I think the A15 was around 90hp (at the crank. Riley 2.5s were around 100 correct? ITC rules didn't allow for porting of the heads but obviously you can do that in your car.  I clean up the ports using nothing more than a Dremel, the valve seats protrude into the port quite a bit, by smoothing the port bowl/throat it opens up that area by 2-3mm. Doing that is worth several horsepower. Additionally fitting a very mild cam along with a header will get you several more. You should be able to get the car back to it's standard horsepower. Couple that with the fact that I'm sure the Datsun motor & transmission are very likely 150-200lbs lighter than the Riley drivetrain, so  you're car should move out smartly.

 

I do have some motor bits I'm looking to get rid of very cheaply that might add some power.

 

On the subject of transmissions did you get a 5 speed per chance? The overdrive would be a nice feature. The A15 will rev 5000 rpm all day long but you might find that rather tiresome.

 

[jagman]

Tom1200 I will gladly pay shipping just let me know how much and I will send a check to cover.  The original Riley 2.5 generated around 80 HP so the A15 is in the same range without mods and you are right about the weight savings.  I have  a 5 speed tranny behind it so I am covered there, although we raced with a 4 speed.  The major change will be in the braking system. The Riley has drums but only hydraulic fronts, the rears are mechanical.  I will have to modify the rears to hydraulics and put a proportioning valve in the system.  I am debating whether to put in a power assisted master cylinder but have little room for a large vacuum unit under the floor boards.  I need to do more research when the time comes for the mods to the brakes.

 

What other bits do you have?

Steve

[Tom1200]

Depending on whether you have a round or oval port head I may have some gaskets. I've got a used set of GX double valve springs (good for 8000 RPMs but limit valve lift to around .4") which would work with a mild cam. I'll have to look and see what other goodies are in the cabinet I may have some valves that would offer a bit more flow.

 

If you are going to build up the A15 I'd go with the Weber 32/36 carbs, clean up the ports, but a set of SI valves (the stems are narrowed for more flow), use a Delta 278 cam (.420 lift 278 duration) and Isky valve springs. That would net you an honest 100hp at the crank maybe a touch more. Delta will regrind the crank for $75-100, the springs are around $125-150, new lifters can be had from Rockauto, the valves are around $100-150 for the set.

 

As for the rear brakes; as the RMB uses leaf springs perhaps you could use a Datsun back axle as I'd guess the track widths are pretty close? grant the wheel lug patterns are likely different so you'd need to have the axles redrilled…….might be simpler to mod the Riley brakes. If you use a a 510 wagon axle (H190) with aluminum center section in conjunction with the allow Z car drums the whole assembly is around 96lbs. That might also take off some more weight and help with the power brake dilemma.

[jagman]

The A15 is already built and I have no idea what it was built with or any internal mods.  I plan to use it as is.  I have just finished scrapping a 720 king cab and have all the drive train.  I am already planning on using the short drive shaft to match from the A15 to the Riley main shaft.  I will measure the wheel width on the 720 and see how close it is to the Riley ( good idea!).  If that will work that's half the problem.

 

I do wonder if  anyone on the forum has put 16" wheels on a 720.

 

 A friend here suggested that since the Riley was known to stop with the brakes it had I may not have to have more than a master cylinder.  That would eliminate the booster and the space problem.  Until I have the engine in place all is conjecture at this point!  If you have the time give me a call after 5 eastern at 276 694 2499. Steve

[Tom1200]

I will try and give you a shout on Sunday; like I said I've been prepping for a race weekend so I haven't had a chance yet.

[jagman]

Tom, I tried to message you but got a message that you can't be messaged.  So here is my address.  

Steve Ferring

687 Knocking Shop Lane

Claudville, VA  24076

 

I will send pictures of the Riley to your email if you post it.

 

Thanks Steve

[jagman]

The aheader I get the behinder I am.  I have been going thru the trailer trash that was put in a corner of the shop and forgotten.  I have found 210 drive shafts,  a rear end and a bunch of carbs that I think came off the 240 Z.  I am not progressing as much as I would like because I have been plagued by equipment breakdowns in the shop.  Hopefully that is over and I can resume the fabrication of the motor and tranny mounts.

[Tom1200]

Projects do tend to fight the entire way.

[jagman]

I have engineered the rear brakes and have converted to full hydraulic. I am now trying to mount the master cylinder without changing the pedals for the brake and  clutch in the car.  I am wondering what to do about the e brake though. I have been trying to find a valve I can put in the rear brake line to act as an e brake.  If you have any ideas I would welcome them.

[wayno]

I would not use a line lock for an e-brake, what kind of e-brake did it come with?

I used a Ford Courier master brake cylinder under the floor boards in my 47 Chevy truck as it has a remote reservoir, it worked fine with my stock pedal, I put an automatic in it so I didn't need the clutch pedal.

[jagman]

Hey Wayno, 

The e-brake on the Riley was a cable to a swing arm that rotated a wedge in the drum to apply the brake.  Now that I have deleted the mechanical shoe wedge I have no way to apply brakes with a cable unless I can come up with a way to lock the  rear brake until it is released.

[Crashtd420]

What about still using the cable but mounting a mechanical caliper and disk on the drive shaft at the rear differential...

Not sure how your setup is if that's even possible... I know the datsun has a flange so one could bolt a disk in between the 2 flanges....

 

Why did you eliminate them from the rear drum setup?

 

[jagman]

Crashtd420,  I had no choice but to remove the wedge setup in order to get the hydraulic wheel cylinder into the drum.  The original setup was full mechanical with the wedge driving the  shoes apart and the ebrake cable just engaged the rear brake wedges.  I will check to see if I have clearance to put a  rotor on the drive shaft just forward of the diff. My 48 chrysler has a tranny brake on it but it is a band brake and I know I don't have the mounting or clearance for anything similar there. Good suggestion!

[MikeRL411]

Jaguar used to put an emergency/parking disc brake on the drive shaft just forward of the differential.  Might be an idea to pursue.

[MikeRL411]

By the way, Hudson cars  were 2 wheel rear mechanical brakes with 4 wheel hydraulic over ride.  They worked very well .

Edited January 8, 2020 by MikeRL411
correction of brake system operation

[jagman]

After great deliberation I have come to the conclusion that a stop controlled by the original e brake on the brake pedal is the way to go.  Put the brakes on -- pull the lever to engage the stop.

To release, step on the brake and release the pall.  I hope that the brake lights will turn off with the key!  Think that will work?

[datzenmike]

The point of an e brake is that it's a separate system, a back up to the hydraulics. The e brake isn't intended just for holding the car on a hill but to get stopped in an emergency. If the hydraulics fail you have nothing. The brake light will stay on. It's wired directly to the battery and works at all times just like the headlights the horn and the interior light when you open the door.

[jagman]

HI MIKE,,  I know that it should be a separate system but the Riley is a post-war pre-war design  and it doesn't have any place to put a driveline brake on it.  The body is wood with a metal skin just like the Ford Model T's and A's.  I would like to keep the car as original as I can even with the mods I am making. There is nothing I have done so far that would prevent a restoration to full original .  I did consider putting a brake band on the drive shaft like the 48 chrysler  has but the diameter of the drum would come up through the floor between the seats.  I have a double master cylinder from a VW that fits in the engine compartment that should give me separate front and rear brakes.  If I do use the "hill hold" system I will be sure to put a switch on the E-brake handle to break the brake circuit so the battery  does't drain with the brake on.  

[Tom1200]

Steve here's a thought; for a drive shaft parking brake use something off a mountain bike, some of these use cable operated discs. You could use the caliper and make up a very small diameter disc. It would be near useless as a "emergency" brake but it would hold the car.

 

The only other thing I can think of is some type of contracting band that grabs the outside of the drive shaft itself.

[Macdrone]

Couldnt you make a hydralic emergency brake.  Like use a clutch master cylinder and run a line to another caliper mounted 180 on the other side, of course a mount would need fabricated.  You could even use the ebrake still if you mounted the master with say an eclosed fill under there to push into it when you pull up engaging the brake by pushing fluid into it.  A you pull it and finding a decent working set of parts shouldnt be too difficult I dont think.  Then all you have to do is rig some bent steel with holes at both ends to mount to existing bolts on the main caliper side and go across to mount to the emergency caliper side.

[wayno]

I would just carry small blocks made for blocking tires, one in front of the wheel, one in back of the wheel with a chain connecting them, a hydraulic brake is a recipe for disaster, don't park on a hill and carry blocks.

Edited February 19, 2020 by wayno

[jagman]

I have considered all your advice and have come to the conclusion that a stop welded to the master cylinder  brake rod with a pull up wedge  and a switch will be my only option.  It won't function as a separate E-brake but I am using a double master cylinder.  It will certainly function as a hill hold though.  My other problem is that the Riley E-brake handle is made of some cheap and deteriorated plastic and is coming apart so I am on the hunt for a similar pull handle and shaft to replace it.  Most of the 50's cars had a set up like it so I should be able to find something like it at a junk yard that still has the older stuff.