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wayno

A 5 speed adapter plate I made for a J series engine.

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That is an avenue one could take Charlie, thanks for the advise.

In the end I will notch the plate as it not that hard to do and effects nothing as far as I can tell, it does however show where the transmission case needs to be modified before installing it if one doesn't want to remove the exhaust system to flatten the side of the exhaust pipe

I also figured out that if the napZ case was used that transmission mount bolt you can see in the photo below would have to be deleted as it would be where the exhaust pipe is, yet another issue with the napZ case.

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Right, squishing the pipe there will probably make zero difference in performance. I have a jig for my press brake to squish pipe sections just for this purpose.

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The head pipe wall is really thick in that area, it's right after the manifold, I would need a machine to actually flatten it without collapsing both sides.

 

I figured it out today, it takes me around 4 hours and 2 cutting discs to make a plate, I also only get 2 cuts out of the 4 inch hole saw and 3 cuts out of the 2 3/4 inch hole saw, they don't cut worth a shit anymore and I used a shitload of cutting oil.

 

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Milwaukee hole saws or off brand???

  I think notching is good idea,, as a lot of owners really don't have access to larger tools ,, or want to put out for exhaust work ,,, but a hand grinder is just harbor freight away. 

 

but having it cut a guy ,such as myself, could mark  tranny for grinding or whatever...  I would use my die grinder with aluminum bit and make quick work of that case after that.

 

This handheld sure throws accurate punctuation out the God damn window 

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The hole saws I bought are made by Lenox(bi-metal type), the smaller ones last a very long time, but this 4 inch one doesn't seem to bore a hole very well anymore thru 1/4 inch steel, I likely could get one more hole out of it but it might take a very long time, the teeth seem sharp to me but they are only a 1/16th inch tall so they fill up with metal fast after there is a groove, so I have to constantly lift to let the metal out of the teeth, but I suspect I need to use air to blow it out of the teeth, I only have 2 arms, one squirting cutting oil and the other feeding/pressing on the drill press arm, maybe a foot pedal to operate air.

Fact is I don't expect to sell but a couple of these plates over time, it's not a high demand part.

I actually pulled the tunnel cover off my 1963 Datsun L320 kingcab I made, there appears to be plenty of room down there, but I never drive this truck so I am unmotivated to pull this running/driving truck apart to see how hard it would be to put a 5spd in it so I could not drive it with a 5spd in it.

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Here is the truck.

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I did not know you King Cabbed a 320!  Nice work Wayno.

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Yep, I had to remove them wheels as they were hitting the front of the front fender, they were too big.

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On 4/22/2019 at 3:58 PM, wayno said:

 

 

 

This is cresting hill just after Maytown exit , going north,, in JJ's  67  411

 

nHlAXl3.jpg

Edited by bananahamuck

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it's running a very mellow RPMs at 73 mph ,,, pulls the car around in fifth,,  easy at 60 

 

 

 

 

. I'm sending one of my short 720 trannys to our re builder sometime this week .. I am so fuckin stoked!!

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So you have installed a 5 speed in JJs 411 with a J13.

What all had to be done to accomplish this install?

Did just grinding the transmission case for the exhaust to clear work, or was more grinding required?

Any other mods required to the plate?

What did you do for the transmission mount?

What throw out bearing did you use, did you shim the pivot ball and how much?

You have a photo of the shift lever hole and what you had to do(new hole)?

I would like to know of any issues.

Edited by wayno

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8 hours ago, wayno said:

So you have installed a 5 speed in JJs 411 with a J13.

What all had to be done to accomplish this install?

Did just grinding the transmission case for the exhaust to clear work, or was more grinding required?

Any other mods required to the plate?

What did you do for the transmission mount?

What throw out bearing did you use, did you shim the pivot ball and how much?

You have a photo of the shift lever hole and what you had to do(new hole)?

I would like to know of any issues.

 

He installed,  i just was his go to guy for brain storming and welding what he brought over that he fabricated up .. A bit of trial and error on shifter 

I took pictures but my PC is having a hard time reading them off my phone so only a couple are able to be uploaded right now... I'll use a different device and retake and post.

 

parts that went just as in thread.

J13 throw out bearing and collar was used .. 

original arm was used ( one with adjuster hole in it) 

ball was stacked with 3 washers ,, ( i believe 2 would have done it)  got no pictures at all of that

He ground out a bit more of plate and quite a bit on tranny  so exhaust is easily installed.. Tranny is very thick at that spot so no holes.. If i remember correctly,, pipe is at least 11/2 - 2 inches away from new slot  

 

where it was a bit of finagling to work 

 

He is running a matchbox converted distributor so quite a bit of very scary grinding/sanding on bottom corner of "box" and a tiny bit on starter solenoid was needed , ( took pics but almost impossible to see even in real life ) 

Shift lever was cut and welded with an L to move it rearward ,,  Also shifter pivot is much higher so plate on floor needed to be higher than original ( he put another floor plate on top of original ( under carpeting)  to gain height,  as he has pretty nice original carpet) .. i can probably cut out a 1/2 thick base to lift mine when i do it. 

rear tranny mount was simply moved rearward and two holes drilled straight up to bolt into tranny ,,  there is a immovable crossmember about 6-10 inches(?) behind tranny 

 

 

He's running a 3:70 diff ( that's why it does 80+ up hill ) 

205/60/14 tires 

 

 

He is so god damn happy he seems to have a permanent shit eating grin on his face ... he had me drive it and i was so blown away we "test" drove at least 30+ miles last night..  The fact you are traveling so fast without the engine screaming is really hard to compute 

 

Pictures to come but it will take a couple days 

 

 

.

.

Edited by bananahamuck

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Just a thought. When the adapter plate geometry is worked out, take it to a couple of pretty salty fab shops and see if they can estimate plasma/laser/water-jet cutting some duplicates. That hole saw fandango could run a guy crazy. 

 

A dimensioned drawing or digitized file on a stick would streamline the process and might cut the estimate down or most likely, the shop could do it all. Might see if estimate could be made with several price breaks for multiple plates to sell off & help pay for the setup cost.

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a before shifter re-doo ,,,,,, no after right now

 

OvneKm8.jpg

 

 

Matchbox to starter ,,  yeah it's that close. haha   

 Was still out on bench for trial starter turnover check 

 

qF9FYmS.jpg

 

VxxHc5v.jpg

 

 

All i could get off phone that are of any real value

 

 

.

 

Edited by bananahamuck

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I have a modified matchbox I will check, in the end I made these plates to use stock components.

Also I am not sure about this but there is a possibility that a MG starter will work and it has the solenoid pointed down not up, I didn't want to spend the money as I didn't expect to make but a couple of these plates, as mentioned before, it is not a popular engine.

OK, so here is a matchbox mounted in my J15 engine, it is oriented 180 degrees out of where JJs is, I started the engine, there are 4 notches on the crank pulley, one by itself, and three together, I was able to time it to the middle notch before the timing adjustment bolt bottoms out in the slot it is in, it is around a 1/16th of an inch from the vacuum advance hitting the oil filter.

006.jpg

There is plenty of clearance for the distributor, not even close to the starter.

004.jpg

 

My camera battery died so I cannot take a photo of the notches on the crank pulley right now, I do not know which notch it should be timed at, if the lone notch is 0 degrees what degrees are the 3 notches?

My plate looks nothing like JJs plate, mine has been modified to fit the E1 engine in my L320 kingcab.

Edited by wayno

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Here is what the bottom of my plate, it is only one piece and not layered like the stock 520 plates, and only one bolt holds it on the block, the adjustment bolt.

DSC00232.jpg

Unfortunately that bottom bolt holding the plate onto the distributor hits on the block if I try moving the wires over one post, I will look into it more tomorrow, I want to take photos if I figure it out and post them rather than trying to explain it.

Edited by wayno

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Tails do wag dogs - what I mean is, maybe there aren't a lot of J motors out there because J motor owners can't find good aftermarket parts to make their cars more driveable. A 5 speed conversion was a game changerfor MG and Austin Healey owners...

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I am trying to figure out what the timing marks are on the crank pulley, is it 0, space, 4, 6, 8?

Or is it 0, space, 6, 12, 18, what is it, what do the marks mean on the crank?

Here is a photo of my crank pulley on my J15.

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I have looked in my manuals I have and I searched it and came up with nothing, I need to figure this out to give JJ options if I can.

 

MG parts like the distributor are interchangeable between the E, and J blocks, I have electronic ignition on my E1 block in my L320 kingcab that is still positive ground, the MGs have aftermarket support while the early E and J blocks do not.

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OK, I cannot get the Matchbox to work all that well, I cannot get it past the middle timing mark on the crank pulley, I tried several ways but cannot use any other post without clearance issues, now I understand JJ is really liking it but I really would like to know what mark his is timed at.

I have an older MG unit with a Crane ignition system I bought off of ebay back when I started the electronic ignition thread for the E1 block below, I put it on this block and wired it up and it runs great, I have full range for timing without clearance issues.

https://ratsun.net/topic/71387-electronic-ignition-upgrade-for-your-datsun-320-truck/

Here is the 320 mount holding the MG EI unit in position.

006.jpg

Here is the MG unit mounted in position with the vacuum advance pointed towards the rear.

008.jpg

And here is the clearance between the starter/solenoid and the distributor, plenty of room, you can see the 320 distributor mount also.

009.jpg

All this can be worked out, if a remote oil filter was used I believe that the matchbox will work but right now I would need to see what JJ has going to see if anything can be done, I could not get my matchbox to work at all the way JJ has his.

 

 

 

Edited by wayno

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I do not know what you mean or are referring to by this post.

2 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Adjustable timing light?

So this is what I came up with for the marks on my crank pulley, I thought about it and figured if the crank pulley on the Z20 was the same size as the one on the J15 then they likely were compatible mark wise, so I figure the timing marks on my J15 are 0, space, 10,15, 20 degrees.

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I get conflicting data on where the J15 is supposed to be timed, my searches have resulted in several different results, I do not know the year of my J15 engine, it is setup for the front engine mounts like what are in the 320 and 520, but appears to have the holes in the block for the mid engine type mounts like the L blocks.

When I timed it I adjusted it at 20 degrees BTDC as it idled the smoothest there, so far everything I have read says it is to be timed at 6 degrees BTDC, the 6 degrees was an internet search, I found that the J13 from 1965 thru 1968 is supposed to be timed at 8 degrees BTDC.

If both these searches I did are correct then I could use the matchbox the way I mounted it as it maxed out of adjustment at 15 degrees BTDC at an idle before the adjustment plate groove hit the bolt/vacuum advance assembly almost hits the oil filter.

006.jpg

Personally I would not buy something else if I already had the matchbox, but I would change the orientation so the vacuum advance is up like in the photo above instead of down like JJ has his, if I didn't have anything yet and wanted electronic ignition I would buy an MG EI distributor as they can be bought new(aftermarket), or can be found used on ebay for a reasonable price, this one in the link below is what I have on the engine in my last post, but I would not pay that much.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lucas-MGB-Electronic-Ignition-Distributor-41695-41695A-Cap-Wires-Crane-Cam-XR700/163353504837?hash=item2608a0ac45:g:8EkAAOSwiwZb3hiz:sc:USPSPriority!98683!US!-1

Here is one with the stock EI that has been re-manufactured, I am not saying buy this one in the link below, but they re-manufacture these units to this day.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MGB-45DE4-Distributor-Electronic-ignition-Remanufactured-with-New-Amplifier/113802668346?hash=item1a7f2ae93a:g:o0wAAOSwJjpblWxL:sc:USPSPriority!98683!US!-1

Also the MG units(45D?) have upgrades to Pertronics available right now like in the link below, but before I bought anything I would make sure the 2 products were compatible as I really don't know a lot about MG stuff other than what I have in my possession.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pertronix-LU-142AP12-Electronic-Distributor-Conversion-Kits/401804919320?fits=Model%3AMGB&epid=202927483&hash=item5d8d708218:g:n7YAAOSwOJFcsYYt

You will also need a 320 distributor mount or an MG distributor mount like the ones in the links below to use a MG distributor.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MG-MIDGET-MGB-DISTRIBUTOR-MOUNTING-CLAMP/202016256031?hash=item2f091b701f:g:i6kAAMXQHDlRfJMc

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Distributor-Clamp-for-MGA-MGB-MG-Midget-with-25D-or-45D-Lucas-Distributor/161626316286?hash=item25a1adddfe:g:HggAAOSwNSxU-VAs:sc:USPSFirstClass!98683!US!-1

Fact is if you search "mgb electronic distributor" on ebay you will get a shitload of results, if you search Datsun 520 distributor on ebay you will find no electronic or even stock distributors and stuff that I am unsure will even fit the stock distributor.

 

Edited by wayno

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You said you didn't know what the marks on the crank pulley indicated. If you have a timing light with advance adjust, and you know which one is TDC, it should be easy enough to figure out what the marks indicate.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Innova-3555-Advance-Timing-Light/dp/B000EVYH7W

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I use this timing light, it's the only one that has not quit working so far and I have had lots of them over the decades.

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011.jpg

 

The timing marks on the crank pulley have to be the same if the pulleys are the same size, how could they be different with them being the same size, if the Z20/L20 pulley had been bigger, then the marks would have been spaced farther apart, smaller and they would be closer together, they are both 4 stroke engines so the marks have to be the same on the J15 and L20b since the pulley size is the same, 180 degrees and 360 degrees are what they are.

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Honestly ,, i bet he probably just turns advance into it then lugs it up Scott Lake hill,,  and backs it off till it doesn't ping..  I wouldn't change anything about the plate.. Nothing 

 

 

I have points in mine so shouldn't be any clearance issues at all for me .. Points aint no big thing ,, easily serviceable, and cheap,.. I like fiddling with things once in a awhile..

 

I read an article once in road and track type magazine about this rich movie star that drove a triumph spitfire ( that was known to have to be fixed on side of road)  He said " i like driving cars that need me as much as i need them"   

 

.

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I cannot really change the plate, there is around a 1/8th inch of total room to play with between the distributor and the L block transmission inner case for the starter, the starter can only be clocked so much before the cone on the end will hit the flywheel, and I am not sure if the cone on the end of the starter is made to work at anything but close to 90 degrees, that cheap metal could start breaking.

The MG starter or the aftermarket starter with no end could give him more distributor clearance, but the MG distributors are cheap and clear the starter easily, also if he just turned his matchbox distributor 180 degrees like mine in the photos I posted and changed the plug wires around, he would have enough timing adjustment, maybe he has adjustment, can't tell by them photos you posted, I was able to get the matchbox to 15 degrees BTDC.

I have to say the stock distributor is very close but mine worked fine on my J15, I do not know if the stock J13 distributor is the same as mine, but there are alternatives.

The plate/transmission/exhaust pipe clearance was good to know as I had not a clue the direction the stock pipe went/was routed, I was guessing, an inch is a lot of clearance, I would need to see his 411 exhaust routing before making any changes.

I wish you were closer, I would like to be there when one of the plates are installed, I understand things better if I can see the issue if there is one, I only have a 320 and the exhaust is routed straight down rather than towards the back like the J blocks, I believe these plates will work on the E1 block in the 320 also.

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