Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
wayno

A 5 speed adapter plate I made for a J series engine.

Recommended Posts

I wanted to see if I could do it, it didn't go as planned at first, but with a couple adjustments I succeeded.

First off I have a J15 engine, I am assuming this one is the same as the J13 and E1 as the motor mounts are the same and the plate is the same as my 1966 Datsun 520 plate.

At first I was going to use the 1981 Datsun 210/310 5 speed, but it would not fit over the flywheel, so I settled for the 71B, Nissans 720 5 speed, I used a long shaft 5spd for mock up but the plan would be to use the short shaft 5spd in the 85/86 Nissan 720 regular cab/short box.

Now understand I did this without even using a tape measure, I had the 71B front case, an L block plate, and a J13/J15 adapter plate, the holes in the center of the plates were the same size, but the hole saw I used was slightly larger, but it still was a matter of spinning/clocking the plates to put all the holes where they needed to be, I actually had to weld up the starter mount holes and re-clock it once as the starter was hitting the distributor, I am using the stock J series starter, flywheel, clutch disc/cover, and throw out bearing assembly on a 720 clutch arm, it appears to be good but I have the engine on an adjustable engine stand I made.

Here is the transmission side of the plate made with the 3 special bolts needed.

002.jpg

Here is the engine side

003.jpg

A closer look at the bolts, they are around flush when inserted into the plate, two for the mounting of the starter and one for the top of the transmission.

004.jpg

Here is the counter sunk hole for the transmission mount.

005.jpg

And the starter counter sunk holes.

006.jpg

Here is the plate installed without a flywheel.

008.jpg

Here is the plate installed with the flywheel/disc/cover, and you can see the transmission mount bolt sticking out.

007.jpg

 

008.jpg

 

009.jpg

It is tight in back of the flywheel.

006.jpg

Here is the starter installed, you can see the special bolts I made to hold the starter on, the transmission case rests on these bolts, so they had to be flush as I didn't want to modify the transmission case, this is made to not have to modify anything else, just mount the plate and install the transmission.

013.jpg

 

011.jpg

 

014.jpg

 

017.jpg

Now I made this plate with the special bolts removable, I need this plate as a template to make more plates if needed.

The starter and distributor are very close to each other, this was my second try.

020.jpg

Here is the 4 speed J series throw out bearing/collar on the 720 clutch arm in the 71B 5 speed transmission.

018.jpg

I cleaned up the edges of the plate today, the exhaust is tight.

023.jpg

 

022.jpg

I can get the head pipe flange on the studs, but I still need to cut and bend the head pipe, that is not done yet.

010.jpg

The head pipe just hits the adapter plate a little, it will be easy to deal with.

027.jpg

And here is the long shaft 5spd transmission mounted on the engine in my engine stand.

026.jpg

I have started and ran this engine on the stand today, the starter sounds normal and the engine doesn't make any weird sounds while running, I believe I succeeded in making this adapter plate, the short shaft 5spd should fit fine in the 520/521 with the J series engine with the normal transmission mount mods.

I have no idea if the short shaft 5spd will fit into the 320 without cutting sheet metal, but I believe this plate will work on an E1 engine if the J series starter is used, I don't know if the 320 flywheel is the same though, the J series flywheel may also be needed, the shift lever on the short shaft is in the same place as the 4 speed shift lever, but the 4spd is an inch longer than the 5spd.

 

 

Edited by wayno
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post

Wow,, i'm going to need one of those...   i may be in the minority but i really love J engines....   Is plate 1/4 inch ? 

 

You know if we could somehow harness what is going on in that brain of yours,, we could power every house on the planet for at least 6 years. 

 

.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Kudos wayno!

 

The clutch is on the engine but the transmission is farther to the rear by the thickness of the adapter plate. How will this affect the release collar length? Could you increase the slave push rod by this amount?

Share this post


Link to post

Thankyou  Andrew

 

Yes I used 1/4" plate for this one, stock is 3/16", after I made this plate I thought about it and concluded that it really doesn't need to be 1/4" as the engine has no more power with the 5spd, there are so many bolts so close together that I doubt it would bend id 3/16".

I actually had to weld the starter holes closed so I could re-clock where the starter was located, welding the plate that much slightly warped it in the starter area, but not enough to cause an issue.

 

The clutch slaves are connected to the transmission cases on both of the transmissions, as for the arms I have not looked too close at them yet, I believe it will work as there is 3/4" of an inch left before the arm hits the case at the hole in the case, so that is likely over an inch at where the push rod is in the arm, I think it will work.

But I was thinking about seeing if I could use a 720 collar/throw out bearing, the J series one is flat while the 720 surface one is not flat, right now I don't have a 240mm collar to try a fitting, the 225mm collar was too tall.

If I have to I expect I could shim the ball the arm pivots on, an 1/8" would be quite a bit at the push rod, I would try a 1/16" first.

The engine came with a 3/16" adapter plate to mount the 4spd, I only used a 1/16" thicker plate on this one.

This plate I made is what I would use to make more plates, I am thinking that 3/16" is enough.

Edited by wayno
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I only made this plate over the last couple days(part time), I have not put it in anything other than the engine test stand, in the end I thought this might interest 320 owners, as when one changes out the rear gears you lose the grunt power 4.88 gears had, but if one has another gear maybe it would be a more friendly driver with the stock gearing.

 

I didn't think about this till just now, but the 1985/86 Nissan 720 5spd came with a napZ front case, I might be able to make an adapter plate for that transmission as the one I made is for a L block case, but if I can not get the starter position as low with the Z case as I did with the L case it will be impossible to do, right now the starter is not centered in the L block starter position, I put it as low as I could get it without having to start grinding away on the transmission case, I made this so no modifications would have to be made to the block or the transmission case.

Edited by wayno
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

The over drive 5th in the 2wd '85 is almost 17% reduction in RPMs over 4th gear. So if at 4K going down the highway in 4th it will be 3,332 in 5th.

Share this post


Link to post

I just looked at the napZ case, no way to make that case mount pattern work, it puts the starter into the center of the distributor, good thing I didn't get fixated on that case as it would not have happened at all, the L case is it, but that case makes it possible to do the conversion.

Edited by wayno
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

You say you had to rotate the trans a little bit to keep starter from hitting distributor..  In your opinion can it ( tranny)  be rotated a tiny bit more or is trans going to interfere with the exhaust even more than it does?? Or would trans be leaning too far over to correctly fill in vehicle?? OR do you think there is enough clearance between them now so no need to rotate? 

 

And i sent this out last night as group text and most questions we had were if a Napz bell could be used with a little work... Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

 

.

Edited by bananahamuck
Love stinks ,, yeah ,, yeah

Share this post


Link to post

 OK, I will try to answer your questions, no I didn't rotate the transmission case, I rotated where the J13/15 starter mounted, the J series starter is not as large as the L block starter, when I centered the J series starter in the L series case starter area the starter hit the distributor and the J15 block, since there was a little room left in the L series starter area, I welded up the original J series starter holes I made and I rotated the J series starter hole down as far as I thought I could without hitting the inside of the L series case with the cone part of the starter, now the J series starter is not centered in the L series starter hole/section in the case anymore, since I don't have a loose L front case I cannot see in there to see if there is anymore room to rotate the starter hole to get it farther away from the distributor, I will figure it out before I am done.

All this above has nothing to do with the exhaust/transmission interference, nothing can be done about this, the mount bolt is not the issue, the case is just slightly too big around, I suppose the case and adapter plate could be notched in that area to clearance the exhaust pipe, but I cannot sell front cases with the adapter plates, I just don't have the cases to do that, I could notch the adapter plates so those who used them would know what area of their transmission case to grind away before installing the plate/transmission as it appears there is enough meat to do just that as the transmission case is ribbed in that area, but I suspect it is ribbed for a reason.

001.jpg

 

002.jpg

 

Now the napZ case is another story, I just roughly measured them, keep in mind that the L case starter area/bulge, what ever you want to call it is at a certain height sticking out on the side of the transmission case, with the J series starter centered in the lower part of that area/bulge, the starter solenoid is an eighth inch away from the bottom of the distributor now, well to have the shift lever pointed basically straight up in the cab when in the neutral gate of 3rd/4th gear, the the starter will need to be rotated at least an inch and a quarter higher, this will put the stock J series starter solenoid way into the distributor even if I re-clock the starter itself to keep solenoid out of the block.

All this said above I am not done looking at things yet, maybe there is a way to use the napZ case that I have not looked into much yet, the MGB starter appears to have the starter solenoid clocked/rotated down instead of up like the J series starter, I have already called a MG guy about this but I received no response, I really just need a cheap used functioning MGB starter with the solenoid connected to the starter as there are 2 different types, I don't want to put a lot of money into this, time is not a big deal, but money is as I am semi retired now, if I can find a cheap MGB starter I will look into seeing if the napZ case is an option, keep in mind that I am assuming the MGB starter is the same, as the J and MG blocks are very close to being the same in that era as the J13/15 and E1 block is basically a copy of an MG block, at least that is what I believe.

 

 

1 hour ago, bananahamuck said:

You say you had to rotate the trans a little bit to keep starter from hitting distributor..  In your opinion can it ( tranny)  be rotated a tiny bit more or is trans going to interfere with the exhaust even more than it does?? Or would trans be leaning too far over to correctly fill in vehicle?? OR do you think there is enough clearance between them now so no need to rotate? 

 

And i sent this out last night as group text and most questions we had were if a Napz bell could be used with a little work... Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

 

.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

So I tried to see how much room I had before the starter cone hits the inside of the transmission, maybe a 1/16th of an inch, I am right on the edge, the starter is also on the edge, it mounts flat on the plate but the solenoid is touching the block, I am considering trying to re-clock the mount holes a 1/16th inch so I can get a feeler gauge in between the starter and the block in that one place, I would feel better about it.

I tried using a 225mm throw out bearing collar again, it just will not work, there was no play in the clutch arm, it was jammed against the front of the case clutch arm hole, I need to try a 240mm throw out bearing collar as it is shorter, I shimmed the pivot ball over an eighth inch and this is what it looks like using the stock J series throw out bearing/collar.

005.jpg

You can see that ear on the transmission just below the clutch slave in the photo above, I suspect that would make a good spring connection to keep the throw bearing off the clutch cover fingers like the early slaves had.

 

I mounted the short shaft 5spd today just to get 5 inches of tail shaft out of the walkway, I started the engine again to make sure there were no weird noises.

003.jpg

 

004.jpg

 

I need to get a 240mm collar and a MG starter before I can make much more progress, the MG starter could fix the issue of the starter touching the block but I would rather use the J series starter if I can.

Edited by wayno
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I know you are swimming in the deep end of the pool on this project, whereas I just stay in the shallow end, but would any starter parts form the Metropolitian Nash be useful? I had to source some parts from Kip Motors (http://www.king-cart.com/kipmotor/category=Metropolitan+Electrical+Starter&cart_id=12218.2231&exchange=&exact_match=exact)

to complete my J13 rebuild.

Keith

Share this post


Link to post

Sorry but that is the wrong type of starter, that is like the 320 starter, there are 2 types of starters used by MG, there is that type and the type in the link below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Motor-16164-for-68-81-MG-MGB/293042048758?epid=179619009&hash=item443aaacef6:g:rzQAAOSwpCFcrMWn

Starter NEW MGB 1968 to 1980 GXE4441

I need one of these type starters to compare to my J series starter that has the solenoid on the other side of the one in the photo above.

Edited by wayno

Share this post


Link to post

OK, I pulled it apart for a couple reasons, one to re-clock the starter mount bolts maybe a 1/16th of an inch, the other reason was to see if a napZ transmission/case could be used, I just don't see any way of doing it, even though the block could be ground down where it sticks out into the starter hole, the starter motor will easily be into the distributor a half inch if not more, and to tilt the transmission away from it would likely have the shift lever way into the passenger seat and the transmission mount would be tilted a lot also.

Here is a photo looking thru the starter hole.

006.jpg

 

004.jpg

 

It just doesn't look possible to me, also the starter cannot be relocated without cutting a giant hole in the transmission case, I am trying to do this without anyone having to modify anything other than the transmission mount, changing the front case is a conversion not a modification and can be done with everyday tools most of us have in our tool box(screwdrivers/ratchets/sockets/wrenches).

I did it with an L block case which is a miracle itself, it could have so easily went bad, I got lucky.

Edited by wayno
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Well the re-clocking of the starter a 1/16th inch was successful, I can now get a feeler gauge between the starter and the block, I can't see the space but it is there.

013.jpg

I have just over a 1/16th inch clearance here under the distributor also.

012.jpg

 

009.jpg

It could not get much closer to not being possible to make this adapter, I looked into the MG starter again and I have doubts the stock MG starters will work because the mount holes are clocked differently than the cone on the end of the starter, but they were selling expensive aftermarket starters without a cone that would likely work, but since the napZ front case will not work I don't see the point in even buying one as the stock J15 starter will work, well mine does and I have a couple of them from J13 engines and they are the same.

Edited by wayno
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

240Z had a different clocking on the starter solenoid. I think it was further out at about 10:00, as opposed to the 12:30 clocking of the one in your pics.

 

I just did a quick google search and found this - http://datnissparts.com/l6-starter-genuine-hitachi-reman-datsun-240z-260z-280z-810-with-auto-trans-s114-282bam-replaces-23300-n3302r/

 

See the clocking? It's different. Not all of my search results showed that starter so there may be other variables. The gear reduction starter probably would interfere worse.

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/14/2019 at 9:14 PM, wayno said:

Sorry but that is the wrong type of starter, that is like the 320 starter, there are 2 types of starters used by MG, there is that type and the type in the link below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Motor-16164-for-68-81-MG-MGB/293042048758?epid=179619009&hash=item443aaacef6:g:rzQAAOSwpCFcrMWn

Starter NEW MGB 1968 to 1980 GXE4441

I need one of these type starters to compare to my J series starter that has the solenoid on the other side of the one in the photo above.

 

For what it's worth, this looks like the 1600 roadster and RL411 starter orientation !  Not much help since they are quite hard to find, but I will keep this reference in case I need a replacement starter for my 411.

Share this post


Link to post

It really doesn't make a difference anymore as the napZ case will not work, the stock J series starter works fine.

Keep in mind guys the the J series starter is smaller around, the motor and aluminum front part(cone) are smaller, the hole they fit in is 2 5/8" round, the L/Z series starter hole is 3 1/8" round, I suspected the MGB starter was the same size as the J series starter.

If the L series starter would have lined up with the J series flywheel I might have went that route but it didn't and I didn't want to add another part(flywheel) that someone needed to find to do a 5 speed conversion, so i kept the J series starter and that is something everyone already has on their J series engine already, I am trying to keep this simple, J series everything except the transmission and adapter plate, and maybe the throw out bearing collar if I can find a 240mm collar to see if it will work.

The thing is that the short shaft 5 speed in the late 720 has the 240mm flywheel, so if you find the short shaft you also found the 240mm collar, right now I have the stock J series collar/throw out bearing in there with the pivot ball shimmed to put the arm at the angle I want.

See this MGB starter in the link below, it has no nose cone on it, so it can be mounted at any angle as long as there is room for the mount holes in the plate, but again the napZ front transmission case will not work and the L case does work with the stock J series starter, so it doesn't matter anymore.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-Gear-Reduction-Starter-Motor-for-MGB-from-1968-1980/171522199941?fits=Model%3AMGB&hash=item27ef851185:g:Zb0AAOSwxCxT6lwI:sc:USPSPriority!97266!US!-1

s-l1600.jpg

I believe this starter above would have likely worked, but there is no point chasing it.

 

I am thinking about seeing if this plate will work in my 1963 Datsun 320 kingcab I have before the Canby replacement event, maybe haul/drag it down there for the weekend with a 5 speed in it, I have everything I need except maybe the room, I am thinking about pulling the tunnel cover off of it and doing some measuring, this was the point of all this anyway I just had a J15 block on the stand instead of an E1 block, I believe the plates are the same as more than one 320 I know of has a J15 in it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, MikeRL411 said:

 

For what it's worth, this looks like the 1600 roadster and RL411 starter orientation !  Not much help since they are quite hard to find, but I will keep this reference in case I need a replacement starter for my 411.

I looked at mounting the starter on the drivers side, but the exhaust is way too close to the block, no room for a starter there.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Damn Wayno, just read through this. You've made some serious progress on this! Impressive skill.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
20 hours ago, wayno said:

I looked at mounting the starter on the drivers side, but the exhaust is way too close to the block, no room for a starter there.

 

That's the reason the RL411 exhaust was routed through the left front fender.

Share this post


Link to post

That was an R block where the starter has always been on that side, I expect the 411 with the J block had the exhaust routed normally like any vehicle with a J block.

The E1 has a different exhaust manifold that points more down, so I don't expect any exhaust/transmission case issues on that engine.

Share this post


Link to post

OK, so I notched the plate to clear the exhaust, now I have no clue on which direction the pipe is supposed to be pointed, I pointed it straight back.

001.jpg

 

002.jpg

 

I had to cut a 1/4 inch of the upper exhaust stud to clear the plate, a little more needs to be cut off to clear that transmission bolt head but there is plenty there.

 

003.jpg

 

004.jpg

 

009.jpg

 

You can see how much I ground away, I believe the transmission case can be ground away in that area also without grinding threw.

 

010.jpg

 

014.jpg

 

Right now I have no reason to grind on my transmission case other than to take a photo, that is not enough for me right now, I only ground a 1/4 inch off the plate, the transmission case is a 1/2 inch thick there.

 

I realize that this is a pain but I see no other way except to change out the exhaust manifold for something else which also is a pain, I am trying to make this so all the stock J block series parts can be used.

 

I wounder if this plate would work on a MG?

 

Edited by wayno
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Wayno, flatten the side of the exhaust pipe enough to clear the transmission.  It will not be enough of a restriction to matter.

Edited by Charlie69

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.