Koni to start making inserts for 280ZX struts.

[Tom1200]

I stumbled on to a press release from last month that Koni is going to be producing Koni Sport yellows for Z cars including 280ZX.

 

I thought this may be of interest since so many of us use 280ZX struts.

 

They are supposed  to be available in May. $150 per insert rebound adjustable only. 8610 race struts run $225 per so it's a pretty decent savings. Obviously you'll need to double check the length insert you need as dependent on how cut down your struts are it could be an issue.

[Draker]

I run uncut 280zx struts, so that would be cool. 

[Dguy210]

2 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

I stumbled on to a press release from last month that Koni is going to be producing Koni Sport yellows for Z cars including 280ZX.

 

I thought this may be of interest since so many of us use 280ZX struts.

 

They are supposed  to be available in May. $150 per insert rebound adjustable only. 8610 race struts run $225 per so it's a pretty decent savings. Obviously you'll need to double check the length insert you need as dependent on how cut down your struts are it could be an issue.

 

Sweet. I run uncut also so this is great.

[thisismatt]

7 hours ago, Dguy210 said:

 

Sweet. I run uncut also so this is great.

I've been running uncut since...wait, what are we talking about?

[datzenmike]

$300 US for one pair of shocks?

[paradime]

Thanks Tom. Are you sure it's rebound and not compression adjustment? 

[G-Duax]

Every single adjustable shock or strut I ever handled the adjustment was for rebound.

[paradime]

Just checked and looks like they're rebound only

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by paradime

[paradime]

3 hours ago, G-Duax said:

Every single adjustable shock or strut I ever handled the adjustment was for rebound.

 

Yeah, that might be the case for rear shocks on drag racing applications to keep the rear planted. It also might be what these Koni rebound only shocks are designed for, but I have no idea why you'd want rebound only adjustment on a front strut.

 

Single damping adjustment on Techno Toy Tuning's KYB AGX single damping adjustment shocks changes both the rebound and compression

 

QA1’s Proma Star single adjustable coil-over shock adjust compression and rebound 

 

VariShock Single Adjusts both compression and rebound equally from soft to hard. 

 

Troy Ermish's coil overs same thing.

[Tom1200]

I could be wrong but I thought it said rebound only, they may well adjust both at the same time.

 

Curreently I run non adjustable struts on the front and rebound only on the rears and it works pretty well.

 

Zcar Depot was taking preorders.

 

Regardless it's nice to have another choice.

[Tedman]

Koni Sport strut inserts and shocks are single adjustable for rebound only. Koni single adjustables have been rebound adjustable for like 50+ years.

 

I ran Tokico Illuminas (simultaneous bump/rebound adjustable) for many years, then tried the Koni Sports and never looked back.  The Tokicos add too much bump damping with each click, making it feel like an increase in spring rate. Not so with the Konis, they just do their job. On my SR car I'm running S12 200SX Koni Sport inserts in uncut 280ZX struts with '87-'03 Mustang Koni Sport rears. See DQ 10.4: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0ByCvxnHNk90SYzc4N2E1MWEtMzg0MC00YTE4LTkxZGQtM2RjODA5ODA1YjU1  

 

On my L20B car (Zeke) I'm running SW11 AW11 MR2 rear Koni Sports in shortened 280ZX struts with the Mustang rears. 

 

I would expect the new 280ZX application will work well for 510s running uncut 280ZX struts.  

 

Edited 3/2/19- changed SW11 to AW11

Edited March 3, 2019 by Tedman

[paradime]

SW11 isn't a Koni product, but the SW20 is the KYB AGX single adjustable shock for the MR2 and it adjusts both rebound and compression. The KONI Mustang Sport Adjustable Rear Shock 8041 1026 adjusts compression and rebound as well. For a comfortable ride rebound only might work well, but for track applications you want a firmer suspension.

[datzenmike]

How do you adjust an insert when installed?

[paradime]

On the KYB there is a key dial at the top.

 

 

The older Yellow Koni sports single adjust had to be removed adjusted and reinstalled. some of the newer single and duel adjustable Koni inserts have the same dial at the top.

[G-Duax]

The Koni Yellow double adjustment inserts have the rebound on the top, and the compression adjustment on the bottom.

Makes for coming up with some way to adjust the compression rate without removing them a bit tricky.

 

 

 

Not so bad if you are running RCAs due to lowering the car, as you can machine an access window into the side of the RCA.

 

And if you look at the dyno graphs of the 8610, verses the 8611 Koni (single/double adjustable) the adjustment of the single has little, or no effect on rebound I mean 'compression', as most single adjustment shocks.

Edited March 3, 2019 by G-Duax

[paradime]

11 minutes ago, G-Duax said:

 

And if you look at the dyno graphs of the 8610, verses the 8611 Koni (single/double adjustable) the adjustment of the single has little, or no effect on rebound, as most single adjustment shocks.

 

Confused, The Koni 8610 single adjust are rebound only so why would adjusting them have little to no effect? 

[G-Duax]

45 minutes ago, paradime said:

Confused

 

 

Rightfully so, I meant compression .

That is what happens when reading different stuff off other forums that isn't related, while searching for images, and typing in a post here.

Edited March 3, 2019 by G-Duax

[Tedman]

17 hours ago, paradime said:

SW11 isn't a Koni product, but the SW20 is the KYB AGX single adjustable shock for the MR2 and it adjusts both rebound and compression. The KONI Mustang Sport Adjustable Rear Shock 8041 1026 adjusts compression and rebound as well. For a comfortable ride rebound only might work well, but for track applications you want a firmer suspension.

 

Sorry, SW11 was a mistake. I meant AW11, the 1st gen MR2 chassis designation.  I used p/n 8641-1142SPORT which is a rear MR2 strut insert.  

 

As for the Mustang shock, not sure where you're getting the impression that the adjuster adjusts both compression and rebound. You can go to the Koni site here and then enter 1990 Ford Mustang in the Catalog Search:  

http://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Products/Cars/

It comes back with Streets (Orange) on the first row, and Sport (Yellow) on the second row.  For the Rear 8041-1026SPORT choose "Rear adjustment Procedure" at the bottom of the box. It takes you to a Rebound Adjustment Procedure.  No mention of Bump or Compression adjustment.  You can do the same for the MR2 inserts (I typed in 1987 Toyota MR2) and for the 8641-1142SPORT, it takes you to the same Rebound adjustment instruction.  

 

I maintain that the single adjustable Koni Sports can be used for track or A/X applications, but if one is serious about competition, I won't argue that the double adjustable RACE inserts/shocks, especially if custom valved, will perform to a higher level. 

 

Check out this guy's site. He has done some shock dyno work on 2nd gen MR2 (SW10) front and rear inserts and he shows that the single adjustable Sports are capable of handling wheel rates of up to 400 lbs/in (fronts) and 500 lbs/in (rears).  The single adjustable damping curves are graphic evidence that the adjustment affects rebound only and that the crosstalk into compression is minimal.

https://wilhelmraceworks.com/koni-shock-dynos

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Tedman

[Tom1200]

I will tell you for racing I run the car as soft as possible. Our cars have a very narrow track and this seems to be the way to build mechanical grip.......obviously our cars have no aero grip. A 510 is three inches narrower than a Miata and a Miata isn't exactly wide.

 

Mike as for the price; a set of custom valved Ohlins for a 1200 run about $5000 and if that seem expensive my cousin has $8000 worth of Ohlins on his P2 sports racer.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Tom1200

[Tedman]

The 1200 is a very light sedan, so I can understand running the car soft. Yikesters on those Ohlins prices! But if that's what it takes to run at the front...

 

To bring this back full circle, my personal opinion is that anyone running a hot street or dual purpose 510 will be very happy with the 280ZX Koni Sport inserts in ZX struts, especially with the Mustang rears as discussed above.

 

FWIW, I'm running 225 lb/in in front on both of my cars. In the rear, on the SR car I'm running Datsun Comp 510 springs (~800 lb/in), and on the L20B car I'm running Roadster Comp fronts cut 3/4 coil (~850-900 lb/in). Seems backwards, but I built the SR car in 2002 before Comp re-issued the Roadster springs. If I had another set, I'd install them in the SR car.  

 

[paradime]

This is getting kind of tedious. Not sure where you're getting the impression I said all Konis are the same, or that rebound only adjustability does anything to the compression damping. And I agree the Koni inserts would be fine for street performance, however I maintain single adjustable compression and rebound shocks are better for track performance, and there are a lot of people who know WAY more than me who would agree.

 

As for Koni shocks that DO adjust both KONI Mustang Sport Adjustable Rear Shock 8041 1026Sport (87-93 V8)

*Adjustable. The adjustable option of the Koni Sport Rear Shock allows you to adjust compression and rebound with just a twist of a knob. Turn the knob clockwise and soften the dampening, counter clockwise stiffens the dampening. 

https://www.americanmuscle.com/koni-shock-9404.html

 

 

You can run what ever works for you. Given your shock's adjustability is rebound only and compression remains constant, I assume by "soft as possible" you mean dialing down the rebound damping to increase spring return. This begs the question, why have adjustable shock? Conventional wisdom is that stiffer springs and compression damping is what plants the rubber to the road, but sacrifices comfort. The last time a 510 took the SCCA Auto Cross National Championship was EP Driver Tom Anker in 1991. Take a look at his car and you see some tire distortion, but zero body roll or suspension travel and that car is seriously planed. This is what it takes to run at the front in a 510.

 

 

 

The 1200/210 is a solid rear axle and totally different suspension needs. This is Troy Ermish's 510 below dicing it out with a Mazda 3, another straight axle car. You can see the Mazda sway and dance around in the corners while Troy's car is stiff flat as hell and planted.

 

 

 

If I'm looking to have a steerable race car, having both reb & comp adjustment at the top of the strut is my choice and what I run on my SR swapped 510. T3 adjustable KYB on short ZX struts, 325lb springs, T3 rear coiler overs on KYB adjustable shocks 300lb springs, stout roll bars, MR2 rack&pinion on a BCW X-member with razed and narrowed pickup points and shortened steering arms. when I first built that car I had older soft non adjustable coil overs with 225lb springs, and under acceleration the car would squat a good 2" creating serious toe out issues. Even with neutral camber and 1/4" toe in, it caused loss of traction and uneven tire ware. My current spring and shock setup took care of all that.

[datzenmike]

 

The subtlety of it escapes my pallet.  From strictly street use....it all tastes like grape juice.

[Tom1200]

I find it great that there is some good debate on this post as always it's all about option that work for a particular set up. When posting this my only intention was to let people know of another option. 

 

First,  when I say I prefer soft as possible on the shocks/dampers that is in conjunction with bigger sway bars. 

 

Second, multi adjustable dampers are indeed better than single and single adjustable are indeed better than rebound only. The only caveat being that you know what you're doing when you adjust them. My modern off road bike has adjustments for high and low speed as well as compression and rebound adjustments.......you can screw it up royally if you're not knowledgable. It's an open class bike and I weigh 140lbs so the set up is very specific to me,  my riding style and the terrain I ride.

 

Paradime; a giant yes they do, on how much leaf spring cars move around on the rear suspension. If you've seen any of the videos of my 1200 on track most find the amount of movement downright alarming (as do some of my fellow racers) yet I manage corner speed equal to or better than other cars. Part of that is the car being 150-200lbs lighter, part of that is my driving but most of it is through set-up. I use the exact set-up out of the Nissan suspension manual. I'm even on bias ply tires. My thoughts are smarter people than me figured this stuff out.  

 

For sure Troy Irmish's cars (both GTL & vintage) are the gold standard but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Neeley's 510 netted some very good results with multiple drivers over the years. That car used non-adjustable dampers custom valved for the car. A friend raced the car for something like 20 years and had very good results with it.

 

On my car I worked with the Koni distributor and found dampers that would work best with wheel rates/motion ratios. The Koni classics (80-1551 for Alfas)  along with 8610s work well for the budget I'm working with. We actually found some Ohlins that were close but not quite right, those would have set me back around $2000. 

 

So coming back to the dampers in question; for a street car, occasionally autocrossed or tracked they'd be just fine but if you're trying to get the last bit out of you're Datsun then either get multi-adjustable or custom valved dampers. 

[Tedman]

Ok, looks to me like that text quoted from American Muscle's website is misleading.  If it's between what American Muscle says and what Koni says, my money's on Koni. Unless anyone  can prove otherwise,  I will continue to maintain that the Mustang 8041 1026SPORT shocks are adjustable for rebound only.   

[Tom1200]

99% of my running is on one track so once I adjust the dampers I pretty much set it and forget it.

 

Paradime is the 510 in the autocrossed video the same one that Mark Nettersheim is now running with VARA?

Edited March 4, 2019 by Tom1200