Jump to content

Cammed 210 head


Threeve

Recommended Posts

Would a 210 head off of a ‘72 620 and a bigger cam would go well on a L20B with a Weber 38 and a header? I’m replacing the rings and pistons in mine and I wanted to go ahead and give it more potential for power if I could since I’d already have it apart. Thanks!

Link to comment
  • Replies 19
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

No.

 

Here's why I don't think so.... The 210 'number head' is designed for a smaller displacement engine. Some say the L14, but it was always used on the L16. Because of this the valves and the ports are smaller because they only have to flow air for a 1.6 liter engine. Forcing it to have to move 25% more air through it is going to choke an L20Bs power. Looking at it another way... the cam would have to move 25% more air just to equal and L20B's W58 head. 

 

Options...

 

ONE I would run a modest cam in the W58 head after making sure it didn't need a valve job first. Definitely replace the valve seals. While the valves were out I'd pull the exhaust liners out of the ports. I've done this but don't know if it helps, feels like it should though.

 

TWO If dead set on a header I would recommend the L16's stock  'cast iron header'. It will also work on a round exhaust port W58 head. I'm not a fan of after market headers... too much bull shit and bother for too little gain even in a warmed over engine. The L16's exhaust is 4 into 2 with the down pipe connecting the 2 into 1 for the rest of the system. The only advantage of a bought header is.. it's lighter. The L16 exhaust fits, never needs to be replaced, never rusts out, doesn't come loose is quieter and runs cooler.

 

 

pqMwCZj.jpgRFFQD1p.jpg

 

THREE Same as TWO but find a good U67 square port head. It's the same as the W58 for valve and port flow but square exhaust ports and no liners. All you need do is drill two 3/8" holes for the coolant flow into your intake. I have the U67 head/L16 exhaust on my L20B. Does it make more power? Don't now but it would seen like it should and if I ever add stuff to it I know there are no choke points in it.

 

FOUR I wouldn't go 38/38 Weber. That's a 6 cylinder or small V8 carb and I think too large for a 2 liter engine, but that's just me. I believe in "it's better to have too small a carb and want a larger one, than to have too large a carb and wish you had a smaller one'.  Same goes for a cam. 99.999% of the time you are driving around at low part throttle speeds and too much carb and cam will run like shit. A 32/36 Weber isn't bad on a 2 liter engine but sightly big. You will need to learn how to step into the throttle properly.

 

FIVE replace the exhaust system with pipe something up to 1/4" larger than what you have and fit a 'turbo' style muffler, nothing straight through, to avoid being 'that guy' with the fart cannon around town. Do NOT go too large. Doubling a pipe's diameter flows 4 Xs as much so a small modest increase is plenty. Going from 1 7/8" to 2 1/8" is a 25% increase in flow!!! Or large enough for a 2.5 liter engine. Too large will slow the exhaust speed and hurt more than gain..

 

 

 

Modest cam, L16 exhaust manifold, slightly larger exhaust system, turbo muffler and 32/36 Weber. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment

The bad thing is I already have the 38 and bought headers...I was originally gonna get a 32/36 but my buddy had the 38 for pretty cheap so I went ahead and got it and it worked out decent. Do you have any recommendations for a cam? I’m still very new to this lol...also, could I run one heavy enough to give it a little bit of chop?

Link to comment

Well no real harm done, put it all on your W58 head.

 

That might depend on what you want and what you expect out of it. A hotter cam is always a trade off of lower RPM loss of power and torque for higher RPM increased power and torque. Usually poor startup and idle and low speed around town driving below 3,000. Even more so with a 38/38 on it. If you think about it you spend way more time idling than above 3,000.  This is really something no one else can answer for you. You might like driving around in first/second gear to avoid down shifting any time you want to speed up... and never using forth in town.  

 

I would leave the cam for now and get used to the other things you're going to add.

Link to comment

I deal with the lack of low end due to a cam on my puny L18 by punching the throttle before dumping the clutch.

Even when I don't leave from a stand still that way, I'm not too far up in the rev range when full throttle results in tire spin.

But then, I don't haul loads of fire wood up mountain passes either.....

 

I do think the limiting factor running a 38 is that the stock manifold runners are way too small for that much carb to see full benefit of it.

Also know as when the throttling point isn't the throttle.

Link to comment

The '78-'80 L20B intake runners are as large as they go. Certainly larger than the '68-'74 L18s and L16s and after '77 they went back to the coolant flow through them. Some would argue that they don't like the bolt on EGR manifold on the side but this is a '79 truck intake with it removed, some grinding and JB weld and no need for tacky block off plate...

 

izWsyiW.jpg

Link to comment

also if you bought the top end performance header, the ports in the flange are tiny and these will actually make less power than stock. theyre that bad.

IMG_20170126_1824138_zps6uldmmob.jpg

this was mine even after opening up the flange. the gasket is stock size.

IMG_20170114_1844304_zpspdva8ift.jpg

i gave this away after trying it due to dissapointment. i would only run this again if i couldnt find a manifold and if it was all i had.

 

IMG_20170114_1309129_zpsersxbc3k.jpg

these ones are alot better, the flange actually matches the head.

you might be able to find a NOS comp header which the one above is, or an ermish header or some other long tube thing.

if you get a shorty, try and check out how the ports on the flange are.

 

im not sure how other shorty ones compare, but the top end ones that the sell on ebay are poo.

 

Link to comment

Fact is that the stock L20B exhaust manifolds flow just fine. You would have to modify your engine quite a bit before the exhaust becomes a choke point. The L16 manifold was even better and why Nissan spent so much time and bother making them... so they could race and win using stock equipment on the 510. Why not take advantage of this? As I said the only advantage of a header is... they are lighter weight.

 

They...

Hardly ever fit. Often the flange is thinner than the intake flange and the bottom studs with the cone washers can't bridge across them effectively and they fail to clamp properly. Being thin, they warp or are warped in the first place and need a double thick gasket to seal. Then you have to hammer a dent in the pipe to clear the steering box on a car or the torsion bar on a truck. Expect to spend a day putting one on. Loosen engine mount and pry engine over or remove torsion bar. I wish the fuck I hadn't thrown the stock manifold away.... it would have been worth the day and a half to put it back on!!!!

 

Always come loose. Collector to exhaust down pipe. Constantly need to be checked and tightened.

 

Always rust and eventually rust out and look like shit. Ceramic coatings help but aren't cheap. Use SS nuts and bolts on the collector...trust me on this. If you expect to get over 5 years from a header you must maintain it. Mostly welding fixes, keep clean, apply thermal paint. 

 

Engine compartment and floor is always hotter from increased area radiating heat. Will cook car steering boxes that really need a better heat shield.  Again ceramic coatings can help or header wraps.

 

Always makes more noise. If you're the type that equate exhaust noise as increased HP then... you really need a header.

 

NEVER EVER delivers the expected power increase. This is due to the fact the stock exhaust is.... good enough even on a warmed over engine and any increase is so high in the RPM range that you hardly ever go there. That 15 HP increase claim on a 7 liter BBC engine is (maybe) 4-5 on a 2 liter engine. Without jetting changes may even hurt your power in the mid range. What's that add up to?... $50 for each HP gained?

 

They pretty much delete your ATC system.

 

 

None of this applies to the stock manifold.

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment

While I agree with you in spirit, things have changed over the years. Headers aren't the maintenance nightmare they once were. Good ones, I should clarify that.

 

There are things you can do to a header that will make it live a long life.

 

- Have one custom made that fits the vehicle, not just the motor.

- Get one made out of stainless.

- If using mild steel, have it ceramic coated by Jet Hot, or at least cerakote (trade name).

- Use a steel core gasket at the head. These are not readily available in large port, so you may have to use a 240Z gasket and cut it up to fit.

- Use studs in the head instead of the bolts that come stock.

- Weld on a V-band clamp to the header and the exhaust pipe (3 bolt flanges suck donkey cock). You could also use a slip fit and a band clamp.

- Never ever ever use a shorty pile of crap. Those are definitively worse performers than the worst stock manifold, and the construction of them is also equally poor.

 

We can argue the horsepower gains if you like, but I am not going to try to convince you (Mike). Yes, even on a stock L16, a good header will make power. Notice I use the word "good" a lot.

 

We can also argue the cost benefits of using one or the other, but when it comes to cost, you should not influence others with your belief system. These are classic cars now and people are free to modify them as they see fit. A good header also has a precedence in time, so using one can improve the looks, sound, feel, and work with the character of a vehicle, making the owner feel better. No harm in that.

Link to comment
6 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Fact is that the stock L20B exhaust manifolds flow just fine. You would have to modify your engine quite a bit before the exhaust becomes a choke point. The L16 manifold was even better and why Nissan spent so much time and bother making them... so they could race and win using stock equipment on the 510. Why not take advantage of this? As I said the only advantage of a header is... they are lighter weight.

 

They...

Hardly ever fit. Often the flange is thinner than the intake flange and the bottom studs with the cone washers can't bridge across them effectively and they fail to clamp properly. Being thin, they warp or are warped in the first place and need a double thick gasket to seal. Then you have to hammer a dent in the pipe to clear the steering box on a car or the torsion bar on a truck. Expect to spend a day putting one on. Loosen engine mount and pry engine over or remove torsion bar. I wish the fuck I hadn't thrown the stock manifold away.... it would have been worth the day and a half to put it back on!!!!

 

Always come loose. Collector to exhaust down pipe. Constantly need to be checked and tightened.

 

Always rust and eventually rust out and look like shit. Ceramic coatings help but aren't cheap. Use SS nuts and bolts on the collector...trust me on this. If you expect to get over 5 years from a header you must maintain it. Mostly welding fixes, keep clean, apply thermal paint. 

 

Engine compartment and floor is always hotter from increased area radiating heat. Will cook car steering boxes that really need a better heat shield.  Again ceramic coatings can help or header wraps.

 

Always makes more noise. If you're the type that equate exhaust noise as increased HP then... you really need a header.

 

NEVER EVER delivers the expected power increase. This is due to the fact the stock exhaust is.... good enough even on a warmed over engine and any increase is so high in the RPM range that you hardly ever go there. That 15 HP increase claim on a 7 liter BBC engine is (maybe) 4-5 on a 2 liter engine. Without jetting changes may even hurt your power in the mid range. What's that add up to?... $50 for each HP gained?

 

They pretty much delete your ATC system.

 

 

None of this applies to the stock manifold.

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So how do you really  feel about after market headers?

Edited by Rick-rat
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
14 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

 

 

 

We can also argue the cost benefits of using one or the other, but when it comes to cost, you should not influence others with your belief system. These are classic cars now and people are free to modify them as they see fit. A good header also has a precedence in time, so using one can improve the looks, sound, feel, and work with the character of a vehicle, making the owner feel better. No harm in that.

 

 

The point is to avoid the prohibitive cost and disappointment for an average owner and engine. Not everyone can afford to indulge their delusions. Ceramic coated or SS headers, exotic fasteners and gaskets would only throw more gas on the fire a far as cost per hp gained. Far and away they are the biggest waste of time and money (poor investment) you can spend on any car and should only be considered when the exhaust is restrictive, which Datsuns are not, or when the engine is 'built' to the point the exhaust is actually holding you back. Beware the placebo effect which states the more you believe the cure the better the results. You could easily substitute 'cost of a cure'. Are you not trying to influence others with your belief system? and is this not what a forum discussion is for? ultimately.... it can be ignored. 

Link to comment

Yes, I guess I am trying to influence some...you. The point I was trying to make is that it is not expensive to do it the better way anymore. Those parts and materials I listed are not exotic. They are available anywhere these days. Shops doing that work today are more comfortable doing those mods, which means that they won't rake you over the coals either. 

 

It's not a fools errand if it can be made to work well, last a long time and satisfy the owner's desires.

 

The issue of HP gains is not one I am going to win with you. Even the lowliest L16 can (proven) benefit from a good header and larger exhaust.

Edited by Stoffregen Motorsports
spelling
Link to comment

I did the header larger exhaust on my 720 and besides the header the rest of the system did not fit well on the 720. The design of the torsion bars, exhaust routing larger tubing really doesn't work. You have to "smash" the exhaust to fit in the 2 inch tubing around the torsion bars and bend the crap out of the tube to make it out of the back of the truck. You lose whatever the increase of the exhaust tube to the sharp bends to make it out the back of the truck. The original exhaust can be improved with individual component but don't expect much, the original system except muffler is probably the cheapest easiest way to go without breaking the bank.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Sometimes I can see it. Other times, not so much. It's those not so much times that cost me tubing... I hate making cuts in expensive u-bends that turn out not to work.

 

I have been upping my game with the use of fancy math and jigs to help find the correct cut angles. That theoretically should save time and u-bends.

 

But, yes, getting one out the back of a pickup in a clean manner can be difficult. For the "smashed" sections, I use either store bought oval sections or I use a special jig in the press to squish them myself. Doing it in a press makes it look not so horrible. As far as HP is concerned, smashing or squishing sections like that rarely matters at all.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • 1 month later...

Even that nice long tube header i posted earlier i had to dent a tube slightly cause it was hitting the steering box. Worth it in my case? Yes. On another note that header is for a 510 and not a 200sx, but its close enough to work.

 

Mild 620 with a 38/38, i think id rock a cast manifold. 

 

Back to the original poster, i think like the stage 2 isky cam the l-480 grind might get you what you want. Not aggressive enough to kill the bottom end either

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.