One six industries

[510revisited]

So ive been doing a lot of research on this product, but cant seem to find anyone really talking about it on any datsun forums. Im really into the idea of fuel injection and electronic ignition on an l20b. The reliability and tune-ability is just super cool. not having to re jet, or rebuild, or pull out a choke, or pump the pedal 12.5 times, or blah blah blah is VERY appealing. 

What im curious about is does anyone have any real experience with this? Is someone in the process of intalling one? By the way ive seen the mighty car mods video of them installing one onto a 1600... and for those of you who dont know, now you know.....  https://www.onesixindustries.com/products. DISCUSS!

 

[datzenmike]

$400.00 CAS???? I'll keep my carb.

[wayno]

I believe the appealing part of down draft carbs/SUs is the simpicity of them, they do not need a bunch of satilitte sensors going to a ECU to make the whole thing work, and if something stops working properly it can be diagnosed on the road and fixed good enough to get one home, this cannot be said when modern vehicles stop working, you need a tow when they act up.

Nissan has made a realiable matchbox distributor(EI) for the L block, no need for anything else.

If it was easy and cheap we all would do it, but it is not easy or cheap for most of us poor Datsun owners, and if we had the money, there are way better blocks than an L block.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Wayno, while it may sound daunting and mysterious, EFI is actually not. You can set up the electronics to run "open loop" or "closed loop" with different sensors for each of the two types of monitoring. Either way, there are very few sensors involved. There's a fuel pump and regulator, throttle body, injectors, coil and ignitor or coil on plug, crank/cam position sensor, water temp sensor, air temp sensor, air pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, air flow sensor, oxygen sensor, maybe a second wideband O2 sensor if you want your system to have self learning fuel metering. That's about it. You can add sensors and functionality like cold start enrichment which may involve a time switch, but really, if you know your system, being stranded on the side of the road is less of a concern. Some guys do their own tuning and if you travel with a laptop, and something occurs, you can usually diagnose it yourself, roadside.

 

I think the days of EFI being a spooky black magic are over. I'm even considering swapping an LS into my 1980 K30 dump truck, which I drive about 10 times a year. In that case, the EFI would be far more reliable than the carb, as long as I keep fresh fuel in it.

[datzenmike]

 

57 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Wayno, while it may sound daunting and mysterious, EFI is actually not. You can set up the electronics to run "open loop" or "closed loop" with different sensors for each of the two types of monitoring. Either way, there are very few sensors involved. There's a fuel pump and regulator, throttle body, injectors, coil and ignitor or coil on plug, crank/cam position sensor, water temp sensor, air temp sensor, air pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, air flow sensor, oxygen sensor, maybe a second wideband O2 sensor if you want your system to have self learning fuel metering. That's about it. You can add sensors and functionality like cold start enrichment which may involve a time switch, but really, if you know your system, being stranded on the side of the road is less of a concern. Some guys do their own tuning and if you travel with a laptop, and something occurs, you can usually diagnose it yourself, roadside.

 

I think the days of EFI being a spooky black magic are over. I'm even considering swapping an LS into my 1980 K30 dump truck, which I drive about 10 times a year. In that case, the EFI would be far more reliable than the carb, as long as I keep fresh fuel in it.

 

You said sensor 7 times not counting the second O₂ and cold start enrichment 'sensors'. Each one cannot be tested or examined for functionality by looking at it on the roadside. So include a lap top that only tells you what's not working (maybe) and doesn't fix one thing. So I'm going to say VooDoo if not Black Magic. Maybe carrying a chicken with you rather than a lap top would work better.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

At least if I have a chicken, I can make soup after the sacrifice.

 

You are implying that these sensors are going to leave you stranded. Consider that in the era of carb'd vehicles, you would replace your car at least every 100k miles. EFI cars, at least the good brands like Toyota, Nissan, etc, last 300k+ miles without many problems at all. My wife's xB just turned 300k and we haven't replaced a sensor yet.

 

Maybe I should start carrying a chicken...

[datzenmike]

Yes definitely IF they fail they are just un-fixible on the road. Hell you can't even tell which one has failed so unknowable what wrong. You are totally fucked.

 

Had the auto choke relay screw up and the choke would not open. Broke a twig off and stuffed down the carb to hold it open and drove home. Another time it was an inch of fence wire stuck up into the distributor cap to replace a worn out carbon button.

[510revisited]

I love the responses so far. Thanks for everyone's input. Mike, your a funny ass dude. I wont pretend to know everything, but there has to be a reason why cars started going to f.i. You gotta agree (ok, you dont HAVE to) that its nice to just get in and go. Turn key as they say. Yes, $400 is a lot of money. But it looks kinda factory, and it takes all the guess/diy work out of the equation. Plug and play as they say... no need for a 36 and 1 gear on the pulley, or hall sensor.

[datsunrides]

I am looking at getting one of the new Holley 2bbl Sniper TBI setups to try out. Yeah, it’s not super cheap, but way cheaper than a custom fab standalone efi. Seems to be mostly self contained with the exception of the fuel pump, CTS and the O2. Probably has a built in “limp home” mode so it will keep going on a preset parameter if a sensor fails. Now, if the fuel pump fails, then your stuck, but that goes the same for a carb. I used to be leery of EFI myself, but after doing a couple OEM conversions and a SDS crankfire standalone with thousands of miles on them with the only failure being a fuel pump on my KA-E swapped 521 (did not leave me stranded, just started cutting out due to low fuel pressure) they have proven to be at least as reliable as a carb with way better drivability. Hot Spark looks to have a interesting and reasonably priced electronic distributor for the L motors. 

[wayno]

In my opinion the reason they are going fuel injection is to get them to pass CA smog and CA ways are spreading like a cancer across this country, OK it is fine that we don't make it worse than it already is, but the driving of cars did not polute this planet like some would like us vehicle drivers to believe, industry poluted this planet for 200 years unchecked and they still are, the worst are mostly in the other countries now where we buy are stuff from because it is cheaper to get it and ship it from over there and sell it here as they do not have the emission standards we have over here and they have basically slave labor, at least that is what we would call it here.

 

That is a lot of sensors your talking about, and you forgot the knock sensor, I cannot diagnose an ECU on the side of the road or any of it components, but I cannot fix a matchbox on the side of the road either, but I can determine if it is the issue and if I carry an extra box for it and the tools needed to replace it I can fix it.

I have never been towed home in my life because of electrical, the few things that are electrical give one a warning except for maybe the matchbox which I have never had one of them go bad, when the alternator quits working my radio starts cutting out, the starter slows down, the lights get dim, the blinkers slow down, and I have a volt meter, when my neighbors car won't start they have to have it towed to a shop to figure out what is wrong with it like 99 percent of the population of this country that own newer vehicles, most owners of classic sheet metal in this country cannot fix their modern car, they pay by opening their wallet real wide.

 

If I were to guess, within the next 40 years it will become illegal to drive a vehicle on the public roads that will not drive itself, I am very happy I will not live to see that day happen, and it will likely happen in CA first.

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by wayno

[thisismatt]

Most people can't fix the simple problems of a Datsun in their new vehicles either (eg starter, alternator).  ECU's rarely go bad, and sensors that are required to actually run generally give feedback and set CEL codes if something goes wrong, which you can read with a very inexpensive reader.  It's more the BS stuff like evap codes that become a headache to run down, but those aren't going to leave you stranded anyways.

[510revisited]

49 minutes ago, wayno said:

In my opinion the reason they are going fuel injection is to get them to pass CA smog and CA ways are spreading like a cancer across this country, OK it is fine that we don't make it worse than it already is, but the driving of cars did not polute this planet like some would like us vehicle drivers to believe, industry poluted this planet for 200 years unchecked and they still are, the worst are mostly in the other countries now where we buy are stuff from because it is cheaper to get it and ship it from over there and sell it here as they do not have the emission standards we have over here and they have basically slave labor, at least that is what we would call it here.

 

That is a lot of sensors your talking about, and you forgot the knock sensor, I cannot diagnose an ECU on the side of the road or any of it components, but I cannot fix a matchbox on the side of the road either, but I can determine if it is the issue and if I carry an extra box for it and the tools needed to replace it I can fix it.

I have never been towed home in my life because of electrical, the few things that are electrical give one a warning except for maybe the matchbox which I have never had one of them go bad, when the alternator quits working my radio starts cutting out, the starter slows down, the lights get dim, the blinkers slow down, and I have a volt meter, when my neighbors car won't start they have to have it towed to a shop to figure out what is wrong with it like 99 percent of the population of this country that own newer vehicles, most owners of classic sheet metal in this country cannot fix their modern car, they pay by opening their wallet real wide.

 

If I were to guess, within the next 40 years it will become illegal to drive a vehicle on the public roads that will not drive itself, I am very happy I will not live to see that day happen, and it will likely happen in CA first.

 

Did this just get political!!??!?!?! I agree and disagree, but will not get into that now or here. What i will say is i think most people cant fix ANYTHING. They just throw it away and buy something new. Im a firm believer in repairing things. I thrive on working on cars. I can, for the most part, diagnose and fix anything on my 510. Partially due to the internet, and also partially due to my love for cars, and experience (before social media and smart phones). I can also fix just about any problem on my 2012 camry. For the same reasons. New cars are not hard to work on, as long as you have the right tools. Its easy to read codes, specially in todays world. Again plug and play. I would venture to say it may be easier on todays cars because of the codes. Is there a code for a blown matchbox on a dime? No. My long winded point is it seems that it (fuel injection) would be better to have the reliability that has been proved over the past 40 or more years. Theres plenty of room for a laptop, voltmeter, and a CHICKEN in my trunk. In all honesty, i would love to somehow fit obd2 to my dime. How cool would it be to see all the stats of your cars engine on your phone, in real time...?

[datzenmike]

1 hour ago, 510revisited said:

, but there has to be a reason why cars started going to f.i. You gotta agree (ok, you dont HAVE to) that its nice to just get in and go. 

 

By the mid '80s it would have been increasingly stringent emissions levels to be met. To a lesser extent better mileage. On the plus side, engines make more power, are more reliable and last longer. Depending on where you stand you could fix carbureted cars yourself but EFI they have to be taken in to a dealer or expert.

 

I was a teen through the '60s and saw the middle and end of the muscle car era and owned a new '70 Dart 340. I remember when the PCV valve was introduced in or around '62 and that was it back then for pollution control.  You were very lucky to have an engine last over 100,000 miles in the early '60s. Now 100k is barely half way there.

 

To fix a '60s/'70s Datsun you need some diagnostic skills and /or experience with them. I would guess most Datsun owners carry a very small tool kit with them. A new car owner carries a cell phone. Today no-one 'maintains' their new cars themselves. The word clutch will fall out of use. Wayno's right we are moving away from the driver experience and becoming... passengers. I'm so glad I got to drive some of the most beautiful and fast cars ever built.

[510revisited]

I guess one could argue then that an l series life expectancy could be LENGTHENED by adding efi? No? 

[wayno]

Laugh Out Loud, I have always thought the L block lasted a long time if driven normally, the reason in my opinion was that in the stock form they were not strong enough to tear themselves apart as long as they had oil and coolant in them, now days we are doing some incredible things and they still seem to last, in my opinion if EFI doesn't increase the HP much more they will still last a long time, if it lengthened the life expectancy of the engine that would be a plus, but likely not if driven normally as it would have lasted that long anyway as long as it had oil and coolant in it.

I have seen a few L16 engines with holes in the side of the block, it happened because of high revs which I do not consider normal driving.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

4 hours ago, wayno said:

Laugh Out Loud, I have always thought the L block lasted a long time if driven normally, the reason in my opinion was that in the stock form they were not strong enough to tear themselves apart as long as they had oil and coolant in them, now days we are doing some incredible things and they still seem to last, in my opinion if EFI doesn't increase the HP much more they will still last a long time, if it lengthened the life expectancy of the engine that would be a plus, but likely not if driven normally as it would have lasted that long anyway as long as it had oil and coolant in it.

I have seen a few L16 engines with holes in the side of the block, it happened because of high revs which I do not consider normal driving.

So you think life would be better if cars still had carburetors? It's not a conspiracy Wayno, it's better air/fuel management.

[scooter]

this isnt a bad way to have a cam/crank sensor installed on an L series, its good because its a plug and play solution for someone who doesnt/cant run a crank trigger wheel on the front of their motor.

 

as for efi and my own opinion, meh. id rather keep the carbs but this could be of good use for someone who wants to go coil on plug ignition.

 

these motors could really benefit from some kind of computer controlled ignition, even while retaining sidedrafts or what have you.

[Lockleaf]

Is there a reason a d21 ka distributor wouldn't just be this thing?

[wayno]

Fact is I hate down draft carbs, I have dual SUs, but a carb is a carb even when there is 2 of them.

2 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

So you think life would be better if cars still had carburetors? It's not a conspiracy Wayno, it's better air/fuel management.

I could care less what you or anyone else want to drive, buy new cars and polute the planet more making them, but do not tell me I have to stop driving mine, or tell me I cannot get a license to drive anything unless I own a vehicle less than 10 years old, and shit like that is coming.

If I see you broke down on the hiway standing outside of your vehicle looking lost I will stop and try to help you like I always have done, I have changed a few tires over the years or hauled them and their tire to the tire place and back, but if it is not a tire, unless you have an old vehicle, the only help I will be able to give you is to call a tow truck.

[datzenmike]

KA distributor (aka CAS) might fit but a Z24i CAS will for sure on the earlier L series. You need the spindle too..

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I know I've seen that sensor before. Are we sure it's even a Nissan part?

 

KA has the different bolt pattern, but that could be easily remedied.

 

The topic of EFI doesn't have to be us vs them. Fact is that EFI runs cleaner. I'm sorry that it may sound like voodoo to some of you, but once you take the time to learn it, and it really will be just one time, you will find that it is actually quite simple with fewer components as the vehicles become newer (not more as the myth goes).

[bottomwatcher]

I am with you on this Stoffy. I was a die hard weber fan until I did my KA swap. All those wires, plugs, sensors and computer looked like a lot to go wrong. Two years later and nothing has gone wrong. the truck is so much more enjoyable to drive. No pumping the pedal or waiting for it to run better when it "warms up". Instant starts and runs the same warm or cold. Better mileage, cleaner oil. I wanted to put a weber on the KA and I am glad I didn't. I stirred the pot before with this comment but will repeat it. "Carbs are toilet bowl technology".

[datzenmike]

If an engine (like the KA) was to come along I would embrace the EFI on it. Likewise an EFI conversion for my L20B. But $400 just for the CAS????? I don't want it that bad.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yes, $400 is on the steep side for a part like that. The sensor itself probably cost in the neighborhood of $250 new, so $150 for a billet adapter is a lot.

[510revisited]

On 12/16/2018 at 1:47 PM, datsunrides said:

I am looking at getting one of the new Holley 2bbl Sniper TBI setups to try out. Yeah, it’s not super cheap, but way cheaper than a custom fab standalone efi. Seems to be mostly self contained with the exception of the fuel pump, CTS and the O2. Probably has a built in “limp home” mode so it will keep going on a preset parameter if a sensor fails. Now, if the fuel pump fails, then your stuck, but that goes the same for a carb. I used to be leery of EFI myself, but after doing a couple OEM conversions and a SDS crankfire standalone with thousands of miles on them with the only failure being a fuel pump on my KA-E swapped 521 (did not leave me stranded, just started cutting out due to low fuel pressure) they have proven to be at least as reliable as a carb with way better drivability. Hot Spark looks to have a interesting and reasonably priced electronic distributor for the L motors. 

I was watching motor trend today, and saw on "dirt every day" the fit a holley sniper efi to an amc pacer rock crawler! Funny as hell. I totally missed your post when i started this thread. Tell me of what you know about this 2 bbl. It seems to me like you could literally bolt this thing up with barely any other supporting parts. Am i wrong? I also looked at the hot spark efi. Seems interesting as well. Tell me EVERYTHING!!!!!! ?