Help with timing issues on L20b with wrong indicator....

[damesta]

Time for me to finally get the timing on this motor sorted and need some opinions...and would like you guys to double check my methodology here to make sure what I'm doing will actually work and give me an accurate timing measurement. This was mentioned in a different thread but haven't gotten this issue figured out yet. Long story short, this is a 72 620, L20b was swapped in by PO, it has a crank pulley with a single mark and also a single timing pointer on the front cover that I'm guessing is from the old L16 it used to have...I do not have the saw tooth indicator that should be on this motor and I can't find one anywhere. 

 

So.....first thing, the factory TDC mark on the pulley does not line up with the pointer while motor is at TDC....obviously this is not a matching pulley/indicator set, so that's not surprising. I'm thinking if I make a new TDC mark on the pulley that corresponds with the pointer then I can make an accurate measurement by setting the advance on my timing light to 12 degrees and then just line the mark and indicator up while setting the timing.  

 

Second issue is that I think that the oil pump shaft was stabbed a tooth or two off, at TDC it is vertical and should be at around 11 o'clock.

 

So far I have put the motor at TDC, only cranking by hand clockwise so no slack in the chain, and verified TDC by watching the piston through the #1 plug hole and lining up the cam gear V and notch. Then I made a new mark on the crank pulley to line up with the pointer (top mark is my new TDC mark, bottom is the factory mark). With the new timing mark I then set my advance timing light to 12 degrees and set the timing by lining the new pulley mark up with the pointer at 750 rpm.

 

Will this work the way I'm doing it or is my methodology totally screwed up here?

 

The other issue I'm not clear on is how the shaft being off a tooth or two effects all of this. There is enough free play in the distributor and adjustment plate that is sandwiched between the distributor and pedestal that I can still easily hit 12 degrees while setting the timing, but obviously the dizzy is off to the side of its adjustment range. Does the shaft need to be pulled and stabbed correctly to accurately set the timing or can I just use it like this as long there is enough adjustment in the distributor to get the timing where it needs to be? 

 

 

 

[banzai510(hainz)]

The photo ,could be a tiny bit Counter clock wise on the spindal but think it should work

 

Yes it should work but when you put the dist in also note where the rotor points. hopefully it right on the spark plug wire. and you have movment on the dist pedastal.  Should like a mix of L16parts installed on this.  Een with it timmed correctly like the 11/28 position. if one has the wrong pedaastal install it could still come out wrong  so install the dist and see what you got or just see if it starts. If you have a L16 dist it will only fit a L16 timming plate otherwise the slot holes dont line up right

This can be figured out also with a timming light if you can go between 0-25 degs your are most likely good and have the oil pump spindal put in correctly.

Edited October 9, 2018 by banzai510(hainz)

[DanielC]

I think if you can locate a junkyard L-20-B, or a member with a spare sawtooth timing indicator, you can remove two bolts on the front cam chain cover, and put the sawtooth indicator on your engine.

One way to check the timing is just to advance the timing until the engine knocks, and then retard the timing a few degrees.

The stock L-16 timing pointer extended straight away from the timing cover, at 90 degrees.  Yours is bent up a bit.

 

[banzai510(hainz)]

Daniel notice your dist mount(pedastal) maybe this is a L20 type but there are 2 L20 types one for the points&EI and another for the differnt EI dist.. If one has the wront mount then one has to move the oil spindal so when dist is installed it points to #1 plug.

 

 

Oh make sure that water line cap installed dont pop off(former intake heater line spout)

 

 

Hainz Datsun L series timming vid on YOUTUBE

Edited October 9, 2018 by banzai510(hainz)

[damesta]

15 minutes ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

The photo ,could be a tiny bit Counter clock wise on the spindal but think it should work

 

Yes it should work but when you put the dist in also note where the rotor points. hopefully it right on the spark plug wire. and you have movment on the dist pedastal.  Should like a mix of L16parts installed on this.  Een with it timmed correctly like the 11/28 position. if one has the wrong pedaastal install it could still come out wrong  so install the dist and see what you got or just see if it starts. If you have a L16 dist it will only fit a L16 timming plate otherwise the slot holes dont line up right

This can be figured out also with a timming light if you can go between 0-25 degs your are most likely good and have the oil pump spindal put in correctly.

 

It has ran the entire time, but runs much better with it set like this. I'm really just trying figure out where my timing actually is so I can get it set accurately, the PO had it set way off, like -5 degrees from what I can tell and it ran like shit when I got it.

 

12 minutes ago, DanielC said:

I think if you can locate a junkyard L-20-B, or a member with a spare sawtooth timing indicator, you can remove two bolts on the front cam chain cover, and put the sawtooth indicator on your engine.

One way to check the timing is just to advance the timing until the engine knocks, and then retard the timing a few degrees.

The stock L-16 timing pointer extended straight away from the timing cover, at 90 degrees.  Yours is bent up a bit.

 

 

I've been looking with no luck at all, all I can find is the 6 cylinder pointers and they are different afaik looking that the part numbers. I have no clue where this pointer is from if it's not from the L16.

 

9 minutes ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

Daniel notice your dist mount(pedastal) maybe this is a L20 type but there are 2 L20 types one for the points&EI and another for the differnt EI dist.. If one has the wront mount then one has to move the oil spindal so when dist is installed it points to #1 plug.

 

I have no idea which pedestal I have. I'll check the rotor at TDC tomorrow and see where it's pointing.

[banzai510(hainz)]

when you put the motor to TDC and looked thru the hole. that when you can make a mark on the Pully (notching painting or whatever) then right of that notch will be BTDC. now one will have to give you measurements so you can maybe put soem 5 deg marks down going to the right(BTDC) . once running its best guess anyways depending if your motor diesels and how it runs. but mine is about 7-12 after a carb adjustment

[damesta]

35 minutes ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

when you put the motor to TDC and looked thru the hole. that when you can make a mark on the Pully (notching painting or whatever) then right of that notch will be BTDC. now one will have to give you measurements so you can maybe put soem 5 deg marks down going to the right(BTDC) . once running its best guess anyways depending if your motor diesels and how it runs. but mine is about 7-12 after a carb adjustment

 

I already marked the pulley, looked through the plug hole and lined the V/notch up on the cam gear at the same time so I think I have a good TDC mark now unless I did something wrong. I could possibly measure and make the 5 degree increment btdc marks if someone gives me measurements....but seems like it may be easier to just use the advance feature on my timing light.

[banzai510(hainz)]

I dont know how those type of timming lights work but long as you can go to 0thru 25degBTDC I say your good. give good power going up hill ect then I say its good.

The V/notch on cam sprocket only tells you if you cam(chain) is off if when the pulley is at Zero.

[datzenmike]

The V notch does not indicate TDC it indicates any chain stretch. You have to accurately set TDC to check the stretch and adjust

[damesta]

14 minutes ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

I dont know how those type of timming lights work but long as you can go to 0thru 25degBTDC I say your good. give good power going up hill ect then I say its good.

The V/notch on cam sprocket only tells you if you cam(chain) is off if when the pulley is at Zero.

 

13 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

The V notch does not indicate TDC it indicates any chain stretch. You have to accurately set TDC to check the stretch and adjust

 

Well that sucks, so if you don't have the correct pulley mark/ pointer there's no real way to confirm TDC other than watching the piston?

[banzai510(hainz)]

yes thats correct. But willl have to assume its good. off a tooth will still work but just wont have the correct powwer curve I guess.

 

racers will use a dialmeter when motor is apart to get the true TDC when piston is up. and go back and forth pick the center then Mark pulley  I am guessing. Others on here will know more on this .

Edited October 10, 2018 by banzai510(hainz)

[Crashtd420]

2 hours ago, damesta said:

 

I already marked the pulley, looked through the plug hole and lined the V/notch up on the cam gear at the same time so I think I have a good TDC mark now unless I did something wrong. I could possibly measure and make the 5 degree increment btdc marks if someone gives me measurements....but seems like it may be easier to just use the advance feature on my timing light.

You can do what your thinking with the timing gun... as long as you mark tdc correctly... you will just constantly line up your marks at tdc...  put 12 degrees in the timing light advance and line your marks up.... and your at 12.... 

[DanielC]

You can actually feel TDC on a four cylinder in line engine, since at TDC, two pistons are at TDC, and the other two pistons are at BDC.  Right at TDC, the crankshaft pulley will turn easier, because for about 1 to 3 degrees of crankshaft rotation, the pistons do not move, especially the two at BDC.

[damesta]

9 hours ago, Crashtd420 said:

You can do what your thinking with the timing gun... as long as you mark tdc correctly... you will just constantly line up your marks at tdc...  put 12 degrees in the timing light advance and line your marks up.... and your at 12.... 

 

8 hours ago, DanielC said:

You can actually feel TDC on a four cylinder in line engine, since at TDC, two pistons are at TDC, and the other two pistons are at BDC.  Right at TDC, the crankshaft pulley will turn easier, because for about 1 to 3 degrees of crankshaft rotation, the pistons do not move, especially the two at BDC.

 

Great, thanks for the help guys...I think I have enough info to get it close now....as close as possible without the right indicator anyway. When I was trying to set it at TDC before I was using both the piston and V notch on the cam gear, I think if I redo my TDC marks and use only the piston travel as reference and get it right in the middle of the time the #1 is floating at the top then the distributor shaft will probably be a tiny bit further back at 11:00 where its supposed to be. So just knowing the v notch doesn't correspond with TDC makes me think the shaft is probably stabbed correctly after all. 

[damesta]

Alright, redid my tdc mark with just the piston as reference. Now the shaft is slightly cocked toward 11:00 more than before, however the distributor rotor is pointing to the right, not up toward the #1 plug. So what does all of this mean, is it just pointing the wrong way because of the pedestal/distributor combo or is the shaft off a tooth?

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

15 hours ago, damesta said:

 

 

Well that sucks, so if you don't have the correct pulley mark/ pointer there's no real way to confirm TDC other than watching the piston?

Long handled screwdriver down the #1 spark plug hole. Bring the motor up to TDC and feel the piston rock over. Back it up and zero in on true TDC, then mark it on your pulley.

[damesta]

1 hour ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Long handled screwdriver down the #1 spark plug hole. Bring the motor up to TDC and feel the piston rock over. Back it up and zero in on true TDC, then mark it on your pulley.

 

Thanks, I think I have the TDC mark all good now using a combo of watching the piston and feeling it with the screwdriver. Now I'm just curious if the shaft is installed correctly or not. It's close to where is should be but neither of the two distributors I have point toward the #1 plug hole while the engines at TDC, the old points distributor I've been running points almost horizontal to the right, the other new rebuilt electronic distributor I haven't installed yet points almost horizontal to the left. So why are these 2 distributors different? I've always read that the rotor should point at the #1 plug hole when the motors at TDC, banzai510 mentioned that above as well.

Edited October 10, 2018 by damesta

[Crashtd420]

I think it has to do with the pedestals... as long as you have room enough to adjust the timing you can cheat a little.... where the rotor is pointing becomes the number 1 spark plug wire then follow the firing order around the cap.... 

[banzai510(hainz)]

your photo above is what I call th 11.28 position. which is correct per the book.

 

before you install the dist remeber you have a 8mm bolt underneath holding the timming plate. put this loose on there.

now install the dist down with the 10mm head bolt and keep that loose.

 

start the car and dial everything in till you have it correct in the center if possible. Then tighten the 8mm bolt to the dist. then the 10mm bolt timming plate adjustment should be slightly advto get say 10deg TDC and its fine.

 

 

Now fot history lesson there were was a stock L20point dist and a EI one which uses the same dist mount then another that uses a different offset mount. Why? who the fuck knows. But if one buy a rebuilt EI would might not get the coorect one. If you install the dist and your rotor is pointing inbetween 1and 3 and you have to crank the dist one side to get to #1 plug wire you most likely have the wrong dist mount.

 

part 5 or 6 on YOUTUBE   hainz Datsun L series!!!!

Edited October 10, 2018 by banzai510(hainz)

[damesta]

Alright, I think I got everything figured out and dialed in with the points distributor. I guess if I ever install the electronic distributor I just have to move the wires around to correspond to where the rotor on that distributor is pointing, correct?

Edited October 10, 2018 by damesta

[banzai510(hainz)]

just watch the vedio

 

If you have to crankdist to one side to get it to run and then runs bad after going up in RPM you are off a tooth.when you install another dist that might be that one in a lifetime chance of getting(that EI one that is set like 15degs off) youll have to drop the oil pump and move the spindal one tooth in the direction you need to go. Its been a long time I forgot which way. but youll figure it out.

When ording a rebuilt EI dist for a store you might not get the correct EI as they dont come with a matching pedastal.

 

Ok Im done

 

OK what is that wire to the carb? the power for the choke?  Isnt there a wire from the firewall on 72model that had a key switch power. I assume your getting it from the ballast resisitor(look tacky but works). also remeber if you have this auto choke relay if ever converting to a Internal volt reg alternator(do your shorting of wires also) you have to disconnect this relay as your battery drains

Edited October 10, 2018 by banzai510(hainz)

[datzenmike]

Generally it will point to the #1 plug on the cap BUT... as it needs to be timed 12 degrees advanced it and it turns counter clockwise it should be 12 degrees or slightly before the #1 plug wire.  Loosen the set screw and turn the distributor.

[damesta]

1 hour ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

 

OK what is that wire to the carb? the power for the choke?  Isnt there a wire from the firewall on 72model that had a key switch power. I assume your getting it from the ballast resisitor(look tacky but works). also remeber if you have this auto choke relay if ever converting to a Internal volt reg alternator(do your shorting of wires also) you have to disconnect this relay as your battery drains

 

Haven't been on a computer yet to watch the video but I will watch it. That wire is just a temp power to the electric choke from the ballast. Ive read there should be a power wire from the firewall but I couldn't find it so who knows. This will be redone when I wire it permanently.