Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
rosso

How necessary is 510 steering box brace - DP Racing type?

Recommended Posts

I am thinking ahead about installing the VG33 in my 510 goon project and wonder about the need for a (DP Racing) steering box brace. With a bit of added weight on the front and extra power/torque what is the need for a brace?

 

I will have very inexpensive unsticky tires for some time 185/70-13 on 5.5 wide wheels. Is there going to be extra stress on the steering box and should I plan to buy a DP Racing brace to install before I stuff the V6 in?

 

thanks.

Share this post


Link to post

A brace is an OK idea, won't hurt, but not necessary. Most can't drive their cars hard enough to feel any difference. The weight of the engine doesn't affect the load on the steering, nor does sticky tires.... much. Any load on the steering box is mostly it's being forced against the resistance in a turn and is limited by arm strength.

Share this post


Link to post

I disagree with Mike saying weight nor tires affect load on steering.  Of course they do. Whether the brace is necessary, I don't know, but I also think it's something you could fairly easily make yourself.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I second Matts statement that weight and tires have a very distinct effect on the amount of force it takes to turn the wheel, second only to adding caster. The brace helps with the springy feel in the steering as it eliminates the flex in the sheet metal that the box is mounted to. Have a friend turn the wheel while you watch the steering box and you'll see how much it flexes. Take that out of the equation and you reduce the springy feel of the wheel. I strongly recommend using them on the 510. As for making one yourself, if you have the time equipment and skill maybe, but if you can get one for under $100, what's the point.

Share this post


Link to post

You can even go rack and pinion now...

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, thisismatt said:

I disagree with Mike saying weight nor tires affect load on steering.  Of course they do. Whether the brace is necessary, I don't know, but I also think it's something you could fairly easily make yourself.

 

6 hours ago, paradime said:

I second Matts statement that weight and tires have a very distinct effect on the amount of force it takes to turn the wheel, second only to adding caster. The brace helps with the springy feel in the steering as it eliminates the flex in the sheet metal that the box is mounted to. Have a friend turn the wheel while you watch the steering box and you'll see how much it flexes. Take that out of the equation and you reduce the springy feel of the wheel. I strongly recommend using them on the 510. As for making one yourself, if you have the time equipment and skill maybe, but if you can get one for under $100, what's the point.

 

Lets say that with increased weight and sticky tires the driver can exert more steering pressure. But it's the driver that flexes the box and how strong the driver is. 510s are getting old and perhaps a good idea to add support in this area anyway.

 

 

 

 

I like the idles are support but the box support is flimsy. Most are and are bolted to thin sheet metal. This is better.... https://ratsun.net/topic/51809-datsun-510-stainless-steering-box-brace/

IMAG3171.jpg

 

The best I have seen has a pipe diagonally across to the 'toe board' also. This triangulates the support....

 

file.php?id=21141&sid=fec363240cadd6aa86

 

Not a pretty as those bought sheet metal things.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Great vid, with everything removed it makes it so much easier to grasp. 👍

 

Really the brace is only keeping the box from rotating in it's mount, so thin metal holding the top and mounted at 90 degrees to the thicker strut tower is all you need. Pretty sure T3 did their homework on this one.

 

Although it looks cool, i'm not so sure about the necessity for an idler arm brace. The return spring pressure is a constant and transfers nothing into the steering other than spring pressure to return the steering to neutral straight ahead. Yes, it does exert the box output pressure that turns the wheels, but they're attached to the damn frame rails, the stoutest part of the unibody. So I don't see how a small aluminum backing plate would help stabilize anything, or would effect the crispness of the steering in any way. Am I missing something here? 

Share this post


Link to post
19 hours ago, datzenmike said:

A brace is an OK idea, won't hurt, but not necessary. Most can't drive their cars hard enough to feel any difference. The weight of the engine doesn't affect the load on the steering, nor does sticky tires.... much. Any load on the steering box is mostly it's being forced against the resistance in a turn and is limited by arm strength.

What ? why then when my car is on jackstands i can turn the steering wheel with one finger ? on the ground it's both hands and a lot of effort.Sticky tires make it worse.

Share this post


Link to post
21 hours ago, datzenmike said:

. Any load on the steering box is mostly it's being forced against the resistance in a turn and is limited by arm strength.

 

You don't steer with the car stopped. It always turns easier when the car is moving.

 

We're not talking power steering. The torque on the steering box is totally limited by your arm strength. If you can manage 100 pounds of twist with both hands, that it. Doesn't matter what tire you have. With stock tires you might under steer the tires. With 'sticky' tires the car will probably turn better. The thing is you can't turn harder than you are able just because you have 'sticky' tires. 

 

That said, lock one tire against a curb or something and crank on the wheel and see if the frame and box move. If they do, use a brace. Then see if you can tell the difference between this butter and margarine.... most can't

Share this post


Link to post
21 hours ago, datzenmike said:

A brace is an OK idea, won't hurt, but not necessary. Most can't drive their cars hard enough to feel any difference. The weight of the engine doesn't affect the load on the steering, nor does sticky tires.... much. Any load on the steering box is mostly it's being forced against the resistance in a turn and is limited by arm strength.

Hey Mike,

 

So I have a small steering wheel and weak arms - so I won't stress the steering box for the foreseeable future?  :-)

 

30275427877_72d45b323a_b.jpg

Share this post


Link to post

A smaller diameter does increase the effort but it's faster if you are strong enough. Imagine if the wheel was 10 feet across. It would be easier effoprt but slower.

Share this post


Link to post

Mike is right, most won't be able to tell. It's benefit is masked by all the other slop in the 40 year old the go-cart steering. 😂


In all seriousness though, it should be last on your list after replacing every joint in the steering to bring the system back to spec. Then if it still feels loose, buy a fancy part to improve.
The forces are significant though, we've measured about 600lbs through the tie-rods on sticky tires and high caster.

Sounds like a lot but there's a gear ratio in the box so you don't feel that at the steering wheel.
Remember also that due to caster angle you're lifting the front of the car when you turn, so engine weight matters here as well.
 

I have a hard time believing anyone is arm strength limited, have you ever had the steering wheel ripped out of your hands or not been able to turn when you want to? I sure haven't and I'm not ripped by any means.

Share this post


Link to post

Sounds like math class  I was smiling when I said weak arms - I'm good for driving once the car is rolling and enjoy the manual steering. Parallel parking in a tight space in the city, not so much. All my 510's have had Momo steering wheels smaller than the stock diameter but not tiny.

Share this post


Link to post

The steering ratio is 15:1

 

You can usually brace against anything the car can feed back. You may not be able to turn it but usually you can hold it. Try off roading some time when crawling over massive lumpy surfaces. Don't ever let go of the wheel. The vehicle weight can come down on a front tire and twist it to the side violently. I've seen the wheel spin out of control to the lock.   

Share this post


Link to post

A steering box brace does reduce the 510's notorious springy feel in the steering. Before I swapped to rack and pinion, my entire steering linkage was all ball joint connections. Before I installed the brace, with the car sitting on my shop floor I could turn the wheel over 2" before the tires started to move. I was running 6 degrees of caster, 7" wide very soft Hankook Ventus autocross tires and a fat SR20DET under the hood. I installed the brace, measured again and the tires were turning at a bit over 1.5" of wheel rotation. I don't know if that translates to normal every day driving, but on a tight autocross course where you're yanking the wheel with both hand around tight corners, yes it's noticeable. 

 

I assumed that if rosso is going to swap an obese VG33 into his goon, he's not doing it for normal every day driving. I could be wrong though. 

Share this post


Link to post

It is going to be a street driven car and a few club events - maybe occasional track day or Maryhill hill climb.  All for fun, not going full tilt race bonzo..(that will likely change the minute I put on the helmet.)

 

This was my son's car and he planned the VG swap along with Dave Carroll (Experimental Engineering).. I have a lot of the special pieces needed - motor mounts, crossmember, flywheel,  distributer for carbed motor, and will pickup intake manifold and headers from Dave when I can meet up with him.

 

Seems like good driveability with torque and smooth  midrange power. I don't need ultimate horsepower.

 

Obese? That would be a Datzilla motor, the V6 is tiny compared to that. 🙂

Share this post


Link to post

Datzila? I didn't say morbidly obese. 🤣

 

I believe the official 510 engine weight classification are as follows  

 

A Series, Emaciated 

L series, Fit

SR, Fat

VG, Obese

SBC Morbidly Obede

 

Putting on weight may have it's drawbacks, but there's something to be said for having torque on demand. 👍 What are your plans for the rear axle?

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, paradime said:

Datzila? I didn't say morbidly obese. 🤣

 

I believe the official 510 engine weight classification are as follows  

 

A Series, Emaciated 

L series, Fit

SR, Fat

VG, Obese

SBC Morbidly Obede

 

Putting on weight may have it's drawbacks, but there's something to be said for having torque on demand. 👍 What are your plans for the rear axle?

 

 

 

 

The SR20DE and the L20 weight the same.  The turbo SR is slightly heavier, actually the same as the turbo FJ which I was surprised to see!  I haven't weighted a VG yet.  

Share this post


Link to post

A steering box brace does help.  That being said I've driven many different 510's, even 510's with every steering goodie made, doesn't even compare to rack and pinion.  :)  I'm just glad 510's don't have king pins!!  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
41 minutes ago, Icehouse said:

 

 

The SR20DE and the L20 weight the same.  The turbo SR is slightly heavier, actually the same as the turbo FJ which I was surprised to see!  I haven't weighted a VG yet.  

 

If the SR20DE weighs 285 pounds then it is the same as an L20B.

 

The KA is about 100 pounds more.

 

The VG30 is 10-15 pounds more than the KA.

 

(give or take)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
42 minutes ago, Icehouse said:

 

 

The SR20DE and the L20 weight the same.  The turbo SR is slightly heavier, actually the same as the turbo FJ which I was surprised to see!  I haven't weighted a VG yet.  

 

Come on guys, The SR20DE is just an SR20DET on a diet. Doesn't count. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, paradime said:

Datzila? I didn't say morbidly obese. 🤣

 

I believe the official 510 engine weight classification are as follows  

 

A Series, Emaciated 

L series, Fit

SR, Fat

VG, Obese

SBC Morbidly Obede

 

Putting on weight may have it's drawbacks, but there's something to be said for having torque on demand. 👍 What are your plans for the rear axle?

 

 

Paradime, you hit it out of the park with that post - love it!

 

I have not figured out anything yet for the rear axle. I'll have to take it easy on the stock unit.

 

Cheers,

Michael

aka rosso because my first 510 was red

Edited by rosso
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

If the SR20DE weighs 285 pounds then it is the same as an L20B.

 

The KA is about 100 pounds more.

 

The VG30 is 10-15 pounds more than the KA.

 

(give or take)

 

 

I made the thread where I've been weighing all the motors.  The L18 missing some parts weighted about 300lbs.  The NA SR was 325 lbs the KA was 360 or so.   I'm looking to weigh some more engines as I get access to them.  

 

 

What does it weigh

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, paradime said:

 

Come on guys, The SR20DE is just an SR20DET on a diet. Doesn't count. 

 

 

Although that is true I wonder what a SR20DET weighs with a lightened flywheel an aluminum alternator bracket and tube headers instead of cast.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.