Hot LZ23

[Bastard_510]

On 6/27/2019 at 8:52 PM, scooter said:

what pin height are those pistons? if they're 35.5mm i wouldn't mind getting the build number so i can order a set for myself for the next refresh 🙂 those are some nice slugs.

 

 

yes i do. no they are not you will need the 6.002 rods from scatt or stock z20. sorry no one is getting the casting number. ill build of few more of these and ill order a set for you if you want.

 

On 6/25/2019 at 5:55 PM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I would take a minute to knock the sharp edges off the piston domes. 

 

 

you are out of your mind. if i received pistons with burrs id send them back and never do business with that company again

 

On 6/28/2019 at 9:36 AM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

The domes don't look coated to me.

http://blog.wiseco.com/coating-tech-armor-plating-electroless-nickel

just because its not puke yellow doesn't mean its not coated

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I didn't say burrs, I said sharp edges. A nice small radius on all those edges will do the trick.

[datzenmike]

On 6/28/2019 at 9:36 AM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

The domes don't look coated to me.

 

First thing I thought also.

 

As for rounding any edges....

 

On 6/28/2019 at 6:03 AM, datzenmike said:

 Wouldn't that be better before the coating?

 

[Bastard_510]

1 hour ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I didn't say burrs, I said sharp edges. A nice small radius on all those edges will do the trick.

ok so ill get more clearance and more gas going down the side into the crevasse area and causing more damage when it does knock. its smooth they are there for a reason. 

 

 

 

yes mike wiseco did it before coating them

 

[john510]

19 hours ago, Bastard_510 said:

 sorry no one is getting the casting number.  

 

 

 

 

?????

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

11 hours ago, Bastard_510 said:

ok so ill get more clearance and more gas going down the side into the crevasse area and causing more damage when it does knock. its smooth they are there for a reason. 

 

 

What? Not on the sides, on the cuts made on the domes of the piston. ie- the valve reliefs, etc.

 

Nevermind....

[Bastard_510]

1 hour ago, john510 said:

?????

like i said no one is getting it. i did the work to have them made. you can also do that if you want and probably learn something, or you can ask me to order a set but since i decked my block an odd amount these will not be plug and play.  also be ready to spend some decent cash 900usd+ if you are not a dealer. im going to start slowly building datsun race engines so ill be about to buy them for cheap, like my set, and pass the savings on to you guys without giving away the secret sauce 🙂 sorry if that upsets you

 

 

38 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

What? Not on the sides, on the cuts made on the domes of the piston. ie- the valve reliefs, etc.

 

Nevermind....

dude how long has it been since you had a set of new pistons in your hand? the whole piston is smooth. they dont use single point fly cutters anymore. the balancing pads on the bottom are smooth, the bottom of the skirt is smooth, there are no sharp edges . if there were i could send them back. its kinda late to smooth the valve reliefs out when its already plated. if you look close at the picture youll see a radius cut on the whole crown, dish, and valve reliefs.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Bastard_510

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Oh shit, he called me dude. I'm just trying to help.

 

Here are some pics of L series race pistons. The first one is stock, out of the box. The second one shows the radiused edges. The third pic shows minimal massaging of the edges. Doing this does help with detonation, but also aids in flow.

 

 

 

[Bastard_510]

16 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Oh shit, he called me dude. I'm just trying to help.

 

  Doing this does help with detonation, but also aids in flow.

 

 

it wasnt an angry "dude" 

 

well there is a difference in designs. those have massive domes.  there was a dude in the 90's out of SLC utah that messed with honda engines. he did the seminar in the 90's talking about air flow and port work. one of hes experiments was milling a trough across the valve reliefs making it one large slot. i think if i remember right he saw a 50hp increase. so i had a friend test this on a l head a few years back and at overlap there was more flow across the piston. if you want more flow knock that little peak off.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Bastard_510

[john510]

2 hours ago, Bastard_510 said:

like i said no one is getting it. i did the work to have them made. you can also do that if you want and probably learn something, or you can ask me to order a set but since i decked my block an odd amount these will not be plug and play.  also be ready to spend some decent cash 900usd+ if you are not a dealer. im going to start slowly building datsun race engines so ill be about to buy them for cheap, like my set, and pass the savings on to you guys without giving away the secret sauce 🙂 sorry if that upsets you

 

 

dude how long has it been since you had a set of new pistons in your hand? the whole piston is smooth. they dont use single point fly cutters anymore. the balancing pads on the bottom are smooth, the bottom of the skirt is smooth, there are no sharp edges . if there were i could send them back. its kinda late to smooth the valve reliefs out when its already plated. if you look close at the picture youll see a radius cut on the whole crown, dish, and valve reliefs.

 

 

 

 

Best of luck building and selling Datsun race engines.I hope you can keep up with the demand.My question marks were more about the "no one is getting it" remark.You came here asking for opinions and got them and then you act like that ?  I'm not even sure what it is "no one is getting" 

[Bastard_510]

3 minutes ago, john510 said:

Best of luck building and selling Datsun race engines.I hope you can keep up with the demand.My question marks were more about the "no one is getting it" remark.You came here asking for opinions and got them and then you act like that ?  I'm not even sure what it is "no one is getting" 

2 people have asked for me to build them engines. a cnc boring and honing machine is on its way so ill start those when its here. 15min to hone a v8 cheaper, more accurate, and faster than manual honing. you have to ask yourself whos going to be the next rebello or whoever is building these engines. walk into any machine shop or if you can find one a crank and cam shop. most of the workers in there are 60-90 years old at least in my area. There is a huge gap in engine machinist generations. the older generations have their secrets if you listen but they will never tell you everything. i can order you a set but i will not hand out the casting number. 

 

i came asking and ive been handing out more info then ive really received if you want to get down to it. the few points i got were from stoffregen.

[datzenmike]

8 hours ago, Bastard_510 said:

like i said no one is getting it. i did the work to have them made. you can also do that if you want and probably learn something, or you can ask me to order a set but since i decked my block an odd amount these will not be plug and play.  also be ready to spend some decent cash 900usd+ if you are not a dealer. im going to start slowly building datsun race engines so ill be about to buy them for cheap, like my set, and pass the savings on to you guys without giving away the secret sauce 🙂 sorry if that upsets you

 

 

 

89mm and 28.98 pin height on a Z20 rod and Z22 crank for a zero deck height although you can safely go up to 1/3mm longer before having to worry about piston/head hitting from rod stretch. L16 and late Z22 pistons come above the deck.  Or less than 29.98.... depending on the shaved deck height. I took off 1mm and it looked safe enough. So 29mm on the low side and up to 30.3mm on the high side.

 

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

6 hours ago, Bastard_510 said:

2 people have asked for me to build them engines. a cnc boring and honing machine is on its way so ill start those when its here. 15min to hone a v8 cheaper, more accurate, and faster than manual honing. you have to ask yourself whos going to be the next rebello or whoever is building these engines. walk into any machine shop or if you can find one a crank and cam shop. most of the workers in there are 60-90 years old at least in my area. There is a huge gap in engine machinist generations. the older generations have their secrets if you listen but they will never tell you everything. i can order you a set but i will not hand out the casting number. 

 

i came asking and ive been handing out more info then ive really received if you want to get down to it. the few points i got were from stoffregen.

Don't be so quick to make generalizations. I am 46, not 60-90. I am sharing info that I learned the hard way, not protecting it like a golden egg. I appreciate that you are willing to learn, but part of that willingness is opening your ears and understanding when you've just been given some real valuable information. Take that info and build on it. Share your info too. You'd be surprised what comes from a tight knit bunch of competitors who share their info with each other.

 

There is a point at which you need to start protecting your info, but that comes much later in the game.

 

I am happy to help, and I am glad to see you pushing the envelope. Now get that motor done so we can see some dyno results.

[docbainey]

Stoff, you've been so polite.

I cant help it.

Bastard, so what racing series class' are you going to build racing L motors for?

Or are you just doing machine work that customers ask for?

The pictures of the engine geometry stuff that you showed is in spiral bound media?  Basic kinematics, nothing ground changing there.

And I get your automotive machinist age thing, and its not just automotive machining either.

Try and find somebody who can set up and run a horizontal boring mill for a one off part.

 

Oh, and the 50 hp increase for milling a trough in the Honda pistons? I'm sure you meant 5 hp. Most Honda engines are 2.0 L

 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by docbainey

[Bastard_510]

On 6/30/2019 at 5:27 PM, datzenmike said:

So 29mm on the low side and up to 30.3mm on the high side.

 

 

 

Good try but no. i gave them numbers to get .000 deck clearance after decking.

 

 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Don't be so quick to make generalizations. I am 46, not 60-90.

i did say in my area. ya i know a few younger guys at a few shops but around here there are no crank grinders, the cam grinder is 90 and selling his shop, the only other popular shop knurls guides in aluminum heads (serious i have 5 heads from people that have had work done buy this shop and every single time the guides break right at the clip also got a crank from them and it was bent .0015" from someone not paying attention ), the quality of work around here is shit. so why not start making engines cheaper and better with secrets? 

 

6 minutes ago, docbainey said:

 

I cant help it.

Bastard, so what racing series class' are you going to build racing L motors for?

Or are you just doing machine work that costumers ask for?

The pictures of the engine geometry stuff that you showed is in spiral bound media?  Basic kinematics, nothing ground changing there.

And I get your automotive machinist age thing, and its not just automotive machining either.

Try and find somebody who can set up and run a horizontal boring mill for a one off part.

 

Oh, and the 50 hp increase for milling a trough in the Honda pistons? I'm sure you meant 5 hp. Most Honda engines are 2.0 L

 

 

no class. just fun engines to take to autocross or up in the hills. i dont have a l18 /l16 worth building for a class. one guy wants the same build im doing for his 620 but im having a hard time finding another z22 that isnt trash. i never said it ground breaking i was correcting an irritating mistake with the correct explanation. what point are you trying to make here i thought we finished that topic? i can only talk about the auto side of machining but i guess its every job that requires some mechanical skill. that spiral bound text book is the training book for the AERA certifications the one that replaced ASE m1-3.

 

nope it was 50 Hp i forgot to mention it was turboed hondas making 900hp on race fuel. i cant remember the guys name i know he was from utah and all he did was build honda race engines doing in the late 90's-2000's. 

[datzenmike]

On 6/30/2019 at 10:37 AM, Bastard_510 said:

 

 

well there is a difference in designs. those have massive domes.  there was a dude in the 90's out of SLC utah that messed with honda engines. he did the seminar in the 90's talking about air flow and port work. one of hes experiments was milling a trough across the valve reliefs making it one large slot. i think if i remember right he saw a 50hp increase. so i had a friend test this on a l head a few years back and at overlap there was more flow across the piston. if you want more flow knock that little peak off.

 

 

The notch was popular in the 60s and called a fire slot. It helped propagate the flame from the spark plug across the shrouded piston top. There's nothing new under the sun.

 

[Bastard_510]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

 

There's nothing new under the sun.

 

who said there was? 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Bastard_510

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

14 hours ago, docbainey said:

Stoff, you've been so polite.

I cant help it.

 

It's my nature.

 

I read an article once that said if two people had a problem while driving, they would both invariably get angry and flip each other off or worse (road rage), but if those same two people bumped into each other on a sidewalk, they would apologize to each other and be on their way.

 

So just because there's thousands of miles of electrical wire between us, I try not to assume he's being an asshole. And I try not to be an asshole either. It's called common courtesy. My parents taught me well.

 

Anyway, hide your info or not, but I find that keeping your enemies close (making friends with others int he industry) is the ticket. It will be much harder for them to stab you in the back if you consider one another friends.

[Bastard_510]

On 7/2/2019 at 9:58 AM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

 

 

hide your info or not

i do share (you now have a pattern available at a gasket shop for any bore...you’re welcome) here and there but its usually when i find some info thats wrong thats worth bringing up.  like how i just read that effective compression ratio is only at low engine speeds. you know who you are ill send you that text book if you want 🙂 guess mine will be 13:1 at 6,500 🙄the intake stroke at 5,000 rpm only lasts about 5ms (.005 of a second) peak VE does not happen at peake HP it happens at peak torque. 100 VE is only NA by tuned engines...tuned intake and exhaust...so full out race engine and a lot of money.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Bastard_510

[datzenmike]

On 6/30/2019 at 1:15 PM, datzenmike said:

Yes at low speeds. All engines have a lower compression (or effective compression) at lower engine speeds and at starting because the intake is open for about 1/4 of the way up the cylinder on the compression stroke. At higher engine speeds and high intake air speeds the cylinder will actually keep flowing into the cylinder even though the valve is open and the piston rising. This can easily exceed 100% volumetric efficiency, or the full swept volume of the cylinder, without a turbo or super charger. A 10 to one compression engine could effectively have 11 to one compression at extremely high RPMs.. High overlap and late closing intakes have shitty idle and low speed power because of this. 

 

Not wrong. Cylinders fill better as the RPMs go up.                                                                           

[Bastard_510]

what was said was

"Yes at low speeds. All engines have a lower compression (or effective compression) at lower engine speeds and at starting because the intake is open for about 1/4 of the way up the cylinder on the compression stroke. At higher engine speeds and high intake air speeds the cylinder will actually keep flowing into the cylinder even though the valve is open and the piston rising. This can easily exceed 100% volumetric efficiency, or the full swept volume of the cylinder, without a turbo or super charger. A 10 to one compression engine could effectively have 11 to one compression at extremely high RPMs.. High overlap and late closing intakes have shitty idle and low speed power because of this. "

 

 its WRONG. dude just take it and learn something. VE will always be close to or will be at peak torque FACT. engines dont make peak torque at "extremely high rpm" if you look at VE vs torque vs HP youll see when toque falls off so does VE. If at high rpm you gained a whole compression point the engine would detonate and die. pump gas starts to knock at 7.5:1 EC. Gas loving engines cant run 10:1 or even 9:1 and the fact that everytime someone says they are building a 11 or 12:1 engine i see the same person saying 'thats too much" or "that will need race gas" just shows a lack of understanding of this subject. i was told my 294 cam was too big when in reality i needed a 314. when that intake valve closes is when compression starts so you’ll never use the "whole swep" never! stock cams close at 40ish degrees ABDC 50's for a stock cam upgrade and im looking at 84 for highly modified (datsun cams ive researched using the l20b and mine). if i put the stock or modified cam in i would use a larger "swep" but my effective would be stupid high. im serious ill send you the book.

[datzenmike]

Whatever man. You wouldn't be the first 'expert' to come here who read a book.  

[john510]

Maybe it's time for Bastard to join the 510realm and spew his infinite knowledge over there ? 

[Bastard_510]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

Whatever man. You wouldn't be the first 'expert' to come here who read a book.  

1 hour ago, john510 said:

Maybe it's time for Bastard to join the 510realm and spew his infinite knowledge over there ? 

On 5/29/2019 at 6:47 AM, john510 said:

Sounds like this guy has it figured out and just wants to argue with the good advice he's been getting.

read, trained, and certified...where is your fancy paper? stoffregen see this is why i dont give out my piston info here. someone will throw them in and listen to mike because hes alllllways right and bow up their engine. 🙄 mike you want the book so you can be an "expert" ? ill even pay for it 🤣

On 6/30/2019 at 11:14 AM, john510 said:

Best of luck building and selling Datsun race engines.I hope you can keep up with the demand.My question marks were more about the "no one is getting it" remark.You came here asking for opinions and got them and then you act like that ?  I'm not even sure what it is "no one is getting" 

johnny boy while i appreciate your try to insult me i would appreciate it even more if you could comment about either the build or a topic brought up instead of shit comments that gets no one nowhere. good advice hahaha i gave out good advice and i get a "Whatever man" or corrected with the wrong info by mike.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

He has a point, Mike. While your knowledge is extensive concerning stock or mildly modified Datsuns, lots of the theory you post may be just that.

 

Still, Bastard, I tend to keep my lips sealed until I can show the results. Best to win a game with results rather than an argument.