Anti-seize ins and outs--general info

[OlDatZMan]

I searched but didn't find anything on Ratsun  about anti-seize so here goes. I've used anti-seize (AS) since 1975 when I turboed a German 2.0 Ford in a Blakely Bantam and was taking the turbo on and off regularly (because it wouldn't fit under the hood and the painted hood was better looking than the one with the hole in it). Copper based didn't work, nickel based did. That was in Iowa where rust corrosion was bad, so I also used it on suspensions and anything that got hot. I've used Chesterton nickel based now for nearly 40 years on just about all bolts and nuts I wanted to be able to get off again, in these ways:

Absolutely for exhaust manifold, turbo, exhaust pipe clamps and slip joints, well (or mechanically) secured suspension bolts where rust is accelerated by climate (rust belt and marine), boiler parts, automotive sheet metal screws, and woodstove door pivots, assembly bolts, and air control slides.

Mostly for steel bolts into aluminum castings especially when said bolts are seldom removed, and mechanically secured brake system bolts and pad pins.

Not for head bolts or wheel studs, though I do use it sparingly on some wheel studs for vehicles I don't drive much, and I'm very careful not to get it on the mating faces of lug nut and wheel.

I work a lot on old tractors and rusty equipment and rusty bolts I manage to get out I always wire brush clean and put anti-seize on before re-assembly

 

Today I looked again for the reduction from factory OEM torque value and didn't find much. I have a request in to Chesterton if their online form works. Here's what I did find:

Aluminum based to 1600 deg F

Copper to 1800F

Nickel to 2400F

In general anti-seize provides more consistent clamp load, prevents galling, improves electrical conductivity, reduces vulnerabilities to acids, galvanic, dielectric corrosion on parts carrying current including any part connect to ground meaning ground straps and wires and spark plugs, and oxidation corrosion. and generally helps protect against corrosive environments meaning rust belt and marine environs.

 

Unless there are OEM citations for torque values using AS (some Honda spark plugs), some torque reduction appears necessary because (quote):

"As much as 90 percent of the torque applied to a fastener is used to overcome the friction of the interfacing surfaces. When applying an anti-seize to your components, the torque value to achieve the same clamp load will be lower. If anti-seize is used with the torque specified for a dry assembly, you risk exceeding the proof load of the fastener…. Applying torque to the head of the bolt, versus the nut, changes which surfaces are sliding past one another......Testing on dry, 3/8-inch, coarse threaded, zinc plated, grade 5 bolts torque to a 5,000 lb bolt tension has shown a deviation of 22.5 percent in the “K factor” for ten samples. When Loctite Heavy-Duty Anti-Seize was applied to the threads of the bolt, the deviation was reduced to 3.2 percent. (The large amount of torque used merely to tighten the bolt is important, but the text got lost about the amount of reduction of applied torque to use on a bolt with antiseize.)

 

The few numbers I found were:

"I use CRC's nickel anti-seize often and just looked up its specs- it says it has a torque coefficient of .17. Which I am guessing means to reduce dry torque specification by 17%."

"NGK on plug torque: if using anti-seize, use sparingly and reduce torque by 30%"

 

That said there probably is not a useful general rule of thumb due to: 1) differing consituents of various anti-seize compounds; 2) different bolts diameters, lengths, and thread pitches; 3) the torque to yield monsters.

 

Links:

https://www.impomag.com/article/2013/04/understanding-true-value-anti-seize

https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/978611-axle-nut-anti-seize.html

https://www.ngk.com/learning-center/article/522/plug-torque-settings

 

Hope this helps someone.

 

[datzenmike]

Exhaust manifolds probably only get to 700-800F under load. At 1,000F they are starting to glow dull black/red. If the manifold gets that hot you have a problem. No fastener gets this hot.

[G-Duax]

But Mike, the newb wants to post something meaningful.....Don't go pointing out facts.

 

Here are some interesting, but non-recommended facts to go along with all the stuff that is printed on the bottles of anti-stick:

(not recommended because just because I do it, doesn't mean you should)

 

Use copper coat on grounding strap terminals (and not just the treads), alternator mounts, etc., to help improve ground connections.

Use copper coat on exhaust gaskets.

Use copper coat on one side of other gaskets that you expect to be removing on a regular interval, such as a race engine, and spray copper gasket sealer on the other. The gasket will stay stuck to one side, but easily separate from the other.

My father used to use it as an assembly lube on engines, just keep in mind that too much will clog an oil filter.

But these days there is moly paste that works even better.

 

I even brew my own using powdered metal, and an oil or grease to fit the job requirements.

[datzenmike]

Steel into aluminum tends to take a set over time. Not sure what this phenomenon is called but the two different metals tend to 'glue' together and are harder to snap loose later. I replaced my exhaust and down pipe studs with stainless. The steel ones had eroded away from heat accelerated oxidation. When I remember, I have and use some aluminum based (I think) oily paste called anti seize compound. Thermostat housing bolts come to mind.

[OlDatZMan]

Mike, I didn't say the turbo bolts failed at high temp, I said they were easy to get off with nickel AS, when without it they weren't. The turbo and its bolted connect to the exh manifold ran cherry red, hard to miss at night with the thing sticking up through the hood. The copper I used first was probably better than a kick in the teeth, but it wasn't as good at allowing bolts/nuts to come apart when they had corroded for even a short time, due, as you say, to heat accelerated corrosion. That's especially welcome if they are not in a handy location. I wasn't shilling for Chesterton. That can of goop just happens to have been around nearly as long my oldest remaining original tools. The can was 500 grams and I'm just wiping out the bottom of the can now. Bolt threads only need a few microns of it. I like any product that works consistently and lasts 40 years, pretty good compared to a cell phone. Dielectric corrosion I think is the term you meant. Galvanic might be the same, I don't know, someone else probably does, but I think it's a little different, when small electrical current constantly runs through fastened metals which is why there are sacrificial anodes on boats. I assume that stainless bolts would resist corrosion better, but they are also more $.

 

G-D...I don't know what you were getting at. Yes I was trying to be useful in a forum that has been extremely useful to me. if you don't like anti-seize and think its a scam, don't use any.

[q-tip]

Don't take it personally, it's often been said that were are a bunch of assholes that just happen to own datauns.

 

 

Good info though, I actually learnt something.

[john510]

Steel into aluminum tends to take a set over time. Not sure what this phenomenon is called but the two different metals tend to 'glue' together and are harder to snap loose later. I replaced my exhaust and down pipe studs with stainless. The steel ones had eroded away from heat accelerated oxidation. When I remember, I have and use some aluminum based (I think) oily paste called anti seize compound. Thermostat housing bolts come to mind.

I believe that phenomenon is called electrolysis.

[datzenmike]

Galling may be more likely in the short term. Specially bolts into aluminum. Might be better to use studs. Electrolysis, galvanic over time from dissimilar metals.

 

Mike, I didn't say the turbo bolts failed at high temp, I said they were easy to get off with nickel AS, when without it they weren't. The turbo and its bolted connect to the exh manifold ran cherry red, hard to miss at night with the thing sticking up through the hood. The copper I used first was probably better than a kick in the teeth, but it wasn't as good at allowing bolts/nuts to come apart when they had corroded for even a short time, due, as you say, to heat accelerated corrosion. That's especially welcome if they are not in a handy location. I wasn't shilling for Chesterton. That can of goop just happens to have been around nearly as long my oldest remaining original tools. The can was 500 grams and I'm just wiping out the bottom of the can now. Bolt threads only need a few microns of it. I like any product that works consistently and lasts 40 years, pretty good compared to a cell phone. Dielectric corrosion I think is the term you meant. Galvanic might be the same, I don't know, someone else probably does, but I think it's a little different, when small electrical current constantly runs through fastened metals which is why there are sacrificial anodes on boats. I assume that stainless bolts would resist corrosion better, but they are also more $.

 

G-D...I don't know what you were getting at. Yes I was trying to be useful in a forum that has been extremely useful to me. if you don't like anti-seize and think its a scam, don't use any.

 

 

 

A turbo is totally different, didn't think of that. Aluminum or copper based would probably do for everything else. I use some anti seize, but often forget and then have to go back. Timing chain bolts are long and small. Even though they don't go into aluminum, if they seize the, length allows them to twist and shear off. I'm particularly careful loosening old ones. Thermostat housing mount bolts I never remove for no reason. I've had to cut a housing off to get at the broken off bolts to remove them.

 

Not a scam. I will use anything that helps prevent that ominous 'snap' and sinking feeling when loosening exhaust bolts.

[G-Duax]

G-D...I don't know what you were getting at. Yes I was trying to be useful in a forum that has been extremely useful to me. if you don't like anti-seize and think its a scam, don't use any.

 

What I was getting at was that most of the info you posted is already available on the net, no real benefit posting it here again.

Are you planning on posting every little fact about every product that's out there ?

 

Did I EVER say NOT to use it, or it was a scam, or I didn't like it ?

NO !

In fact, I gave other applications for the product, and that you can make your own mix, if you so wish.

You should work on your comprehension skills....

 

q-tip: "it's often been said that were are a bunch of assholes that just happen to own datauns."

" I actually learnt something."

 

Yup, and you are one of the biggest.....

My be some day you will learn how to spell, and form proper grammar some day....

What the fuck is a "datauns" ???

[datzenmike]

[john510]

What I was getting at was that most of the info you posted is already available on the net, no real benefit posting it here again.

Are you planning on posting every little fact about every product that's out there ?

 

Did I EVER say NOT to use it, or it was a scam, or I didn't like it ?

NO !

In fact, I gave other applications for the product, and that you can make your own mix, if you so wish.

You should work on your comprehension skills....

 

q-tip: "it's often been said that were are a bunch of assholes that just happen to own datauns."

" I actually learnt something."

 

Yup, and you are one of the biggest.....

My be some day you will learn how to spell, and form proper grammar some day....

What the fuck is a "datauns" ???

The guy just posted some information that could be useful to somebody.This post of yours has no real benefit.Who cares if he's a new guy ? and you posted info that is also available on the net.

[thisismatt]

What I was getting at was that most of the info you posted is already available on the net, no real benefit posting it here again.

Are you planning on posting every little fact about every product that's out there ?

 

Did I EVER say NOT to use it, or it was a scam, or I didn't like it ?

NO !

In fact, I gave other applications for the product, and that you can make your own mix, if you so wish.

You should work on your comprehension skills....

 

q-tip: "it's often been said that were are a bunch of assholes that just happen to own datauns."

" I actually learnt something."

 

Yup, and you are one of the biggest.....

My be some day you will learn how to spell, and form proper grammar some day....

What the fuck is a "datauns" ???

 

Who pissed in your Cheerios?

[datzenmike]

I did, once, but not this time.

[G-Duax]

OP, and q pissed in my oatmeal.

OP for completely misunderstanding what I said about the product, and q for calling me an ass hole.

 

But I apologize for my intolerance to the op for posting stuff that is mostly understood by crotchety old techs.

[datzenmike]

[MikeRL411]

Bottom line, if you will or might have to replace the unit, use anti-seize.  If it will never be replaced and you want rock solid attachment, apply a little USP Iodine to the threads before installing and torque-ing.  Iodine and steel equals a not to be easily undone stud/bolt and tapped hole.  Be damned sure you will not want to undo the install before trying this old farts "cure", it's not reversible without a whole lot of agony   The Iodine "cure" is or was commonly used by gunsmiths to securely attach scope mounts.!

[OlDatZMan]

Followup from Chesterton:

 

"When calculating torque or referencing torque values from a chart it’s not uncommon that the default value being used of a dry nut factor is .2.   This value .2 is based on using new clean hardware bolts/studs & nuts. The 725 Anti-Seize uses a .18 k factor for the dry nut factor.  You can either re-calculated the torque value using the .18 factor or just reduce the torque value by 10%.  The best benefit about using anti-seizes with lower k nut factors that it helps you achieve the required load at a lower torque.  Which in turn speeds up/shortens the installation time of the application. "

 

Another benefit is adding some lubrication other than oil to reduce stiction. I want bolts to stay in and tight, but l also want multiple torqued bolts on a single assembly to have equal torque, and varying stiction can cause a wider variation of torques. Using a smidge of AS on my rocker bolt threads and under the cap head might have prevented the pulled out threads I'm dealing with now.

 

Nice to know about iodine but I can't think of a bolt I'd never want to remove.

[mainer311]

I like how half the posts in here are the typical Ratsun dipshits getting bent outta shape about nothing. How does this forum still exist?

 

I’m a mechanical engineer. Whenever we use anti-seize or loc-tite, we reduce torque by 20% as a general rule of thumb. Blue loc-tite is great for not only locking threads, but also preventing corrosion. Obviously it’s not effective in high heat areas.

 

From building bicycles and whatnot over the years, I’ve found that copper works great for titanium fasteners, and on aluminum female threads.

 

Aluminum works great on anything that’s not also aluminum, such as steel and stainless steel fasteners. I use aluminum AS all the time when working on cars, since most everything is alloy steel.

 

Mike, you mentioned stainless fasteners, and it should be noted that they have significantly lower proof stress than alloy steel. The caveat being 17-4 fasteners, which are a bit exotic and expensive. Stainless fasteners in aluminum are also highly galvanic when an electrolytic solution is present. It will literally turn the aluminum into white aluminum oxide powder.

 

I work in the government robotics industry and we build a lot of clutches. To achieve consistent torque on fasteners, we actually apply a little bit of high pressure gear grease to the threads before installation. Works great.

[bananahamuck]

And yet,,,  here you are. 

[datzenmike]

Stainless studs/nuts in the exhaust manifold for the down pipe. After 40 years the original ones only had threads left where the nut protected them. The rest was an eroded spike. Years ago I made the mistake of putting a header on my 521. Every six months the collector would come loose and the shitty bolts were all rusted from the heat and salty roads. I worked making sail boats and they had a marvelous supply of stainless fasteners. Stainless solved the problem.

 

Nissan didn't use anti seize, only owners who broke something much later or who had learned this previously might put it on certain fasteners that tended to seize or were in a critical location. Having had to cut a thermostat housing off, I use it on the two mounting bolts. If I take a timing cover bolt off to change a water pump or the alternator strap I use anti seize when I put them back on.

[mainer311]

And yet,,, here you are.

Yeah, adding to the topic of the post.

[john510]

Yeah, adding to the topic of the post.

You may have added too much calling half of the posters "dipshits" The rest was fine.

[datzenmike]

I like how half the posts in here are the typical Ratsun dipshits getting bent outta shape about nothing. How does this forum still exist?

Common sense and consensus usually prevail.

 

 

Mike, you mentioned stainless fasteners, and it should be noted that they have significantly lower proof stress than alloy steel. The caveat being 17-4 fasteners, which are a bit exotic and expensive. Stainless fasteners in aluminum are also highly galvanic when an electrolytic solution is present. It will literally turn the aluminum into white aluminum oxide powder.

Yes, I found that out later but for header collector bolts it was fine.

[russaroll]

how does this make you feel?

 

mmmm........

 

 

yeah......

[MikeRL411]

For ultimate high strength use Titanium bolts.  McMaster Carr is the best source foe authentic Titanium bolts, they can provide traceability to the source if required [i needed that for use on a satellite sensor fastener!]  Side benefit, since Titanium is a poor conductor of heat, the bolts don't really stretch when heated, so torqued clearances tend to remain un molested.