Jump to content
Eriks

R160 diff limit

Recommended Posts

At what point would an engine be too powerful for the r160 diff?

Share this post


Link to post

Well there's a lot of grey area in that question, a lot has to do how you drive it. If you like side stepping the clutch and doing burn outs it won't last to long, that said, Dave Lum has a VG30DETT in his 2 door 510, this is a conservative 375whp car and he ran a R160LSD for years with no issues, we had more haft shaft issues with joints going bad or bolts that hold them to the flange loosening up. R160's are tuff little diff's and you can swap the LSD into a 4:11 or what ever ratio you'd like rather easy. My 2 cents.

 

Steven

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

How you drive, how much torque (not HP), and open vs LSD makes a huge difference.  It's usually the spider gears that die first in an open R160.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

It's torque that kills them. The H-165 is good for 225 ft lbs of sustained torque.

 

I have an L20B powered 710 so about 100 ft. lbs. torque and Nissan decided an H-165 would handle it.  Transmission gear ratios (3.321 in 1st) multiply torque so 332 ft lbs in first gear. I can't imagine any condition where I could maintain that level for less than a split second. Maybe climbing a very steep 50% grade?? I should imagine that at 332 ft. lbs. the rear tire would break loose and act like a fuse.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

A Quaife, or an AP Suretrac doesn't use spider gears, so that eliminates that weak point.

Then it's up to the universal joints, and their bolts.

 

But unless you are running 8" wide race tires, then like Mike says, the tires will spin.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I have run 300hp in a welded up one without trouble with the differential. The rest of the package was trouble though.

I have run over 200.000 miles, about 1/3 on track, on a factory LSD one without trouble. I have run over 500K miles on a stock one behind a 100hp L 16 with mostly sticky tires.

Any tire you can put under a 510 fender will not overstress a R160.

A LSD will more than double the strength of a R160. 

Welding one is not a LSD and likely will shorten its life.

Maybe the question is vague, maybe a R160 is pretty strong.

Dennis

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I have run 300hp in a welded up one without trouble with the differential. The rest of the package was trouble though.

I have run over 200.000 miles, about 1/3 on track, on a factory LSD one without trouble. I have run over 500K miles on a stock one behind a 100hp L 16 with mostly sticky tires.

Any tire you can put under a 510 fender will not overstress a R160.

A LSD will more than double the strength of a R160. 

Welding one is not a LSD and likely will shorten its life.

Maybe the question is vague, maybe a R160 is pretty strong.

Dennis

^^^^ This sums it up pretty well although my opinion on welded diffs is slightly different to Dennis.

 

For years I ran welded R160's in my rally and hillclimb car(s) as well as my road cars.

 

Never managed to break one and would do stupid shit like shifting down from fifth to second and locking the back end up (good for getting around corners on the dirt with a welded diff).  Halfshafts on the other hand tended to take a beating.

 

IMLTHO, unles you have a stupidly torquey motor, an R160 (LSD is the bomb) should be fine in the majority of applications and certainly in road going cars.

 

Many people run the subaru R160 conversion (LSD) and anecdotally appear to have bugger all problems with them.

 

Biggest problem Ihave had is with driveshaft universal joints though this can be negated to a fair degree by putting good quality universal joints in your driveshafts.

 

RW's 2 cents worth.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for enlightning replies. I have a 610 coupe. I believe the ratio is 3,70. I also have a R160 with LSD from a Subaru in the basement, but the ratio is 4,44, which I think is too high. But perhaps there is no problem putting the LSD into the 3,70 diff ?

Share this post


Link to post

If the Subaru LSD is from an earlier model (around early 90's) and a clutch LSD then it should be a bolt-in.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

^^^What Matt said about the early clutch LSD being the one you want.

 

But in my experience it won't bolt in, swapping the LSD into a non LSD housing requires some machining or grinding of the housing to fit the larger LSD unit, I've only swapped four of them from 3:70 to 4:11 but I had to clearance each one, I cleaned and taped everything off and used a hand air grinder with a carbide bit and copied the housing I took the LSD out of. In all 4 cases I reinstalled the bearing carriers from the 4:11 with all the shims in the original places to check the swipe of the pinion to ring gear, this is a good starting point, I check the swipe of the 4:11 diff before disassembly and take pics and when setting up the LSD again I try to match this as close as possible. Not setting the swipe or depth of the the ring gear correctly can cause noise on/off throttle and premature gear wear, but I've never had to reset the depth of the pinion which is good cause that's time consuming and a PITA.

 

I have a L16, dog leg 5 speed, 4:11LSD and 24.5" rear tires and from what I remember I'm taching out about 3300rpm in 5th gear at 65mph, if this was my daily I'd swap to a 3:90. I'd think a 4:44 would be to low for street, IDK someone chime in if there running a 4:44 on the street with there opinion?

 

I also run the Ford LSD friction modifier in my diff to raise the break away of the clutch packs in the LSD, adding a half bottle break away went from 75ft lbs to 120ft lbs, I like a tighter diff for spirited driving and auto-X.

 

Steven

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

3.889 diff with 5th gear dogleg and stock tires it's..... 3,126

 

With your tires and 4.11 this is ................................. 3,128.

 

4.11 diff and stock tires is............................................3,300

 

 

If running 4.11 gears and 24.5" tires this is the same as running stock tires and a 3.89 diff. Your 4.11 is basically compensating for the larger diameter tires.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for doing the math Mike, I only drive mine in the summer now and couldn't remember exactly what the numbers were. While I like the looks of my wheels on my car they are just big heavy flywheels that take more torque to get rolling, and yes the whole reason I swapped to a 4:11 ratio. Kinda miss my old 13" wheels especially when auto-Xing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I have run 300hp in a welded up one without trouble with the differential. The rest of the package was trouble though.

I have run over 200.000 miles, about 1/3 on track, on a factory LSD one without trouble. I have run over 500K miles on a stock one behind a 100hp L 16 with mostly sticky tires.

Any tire you can put under a 510 fender will not overstress a R160.

A LSD will more than double the strength of a R160. 

Welding one is not a LSD and likely will shorten its life.

Maybe the question is vague, maybe a R160 is pretty strong.

Dennis

 

UFO?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I have run 300hp in a welded up one without trouble with the differential. The rest of the package was trouble though.

I have run over 200.000 miles, about 1/3 on track, on a factory LSD one without trouble. I have run over 500K miles on a stock one behind a 100hp L 16 with mostly sticky tires.

Any tire you can put under a 510 fender will not overstress a R160.

A LSD will more than double the strength of a R160. 

Welding one is not a LSD and likely will shorten its life.

Maybe the question is vague, maybe a R160 is pretty strong.

Dennis

It would seem to me that when an open diff tire breaks loose, it takes the load off the diff. Like spinning a tire on ice, hardly any or much less torque transmitted. If LSD, then more tire traction is added and more load put on the diff gears. If welded, then twice the tire is added to the diff load.  

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

The spider gear and side gear is what breaks in the open diff. Could it be the CLSD is beefier and the clutch pack cushions much of the load on the gears. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

The LSD has them also.

 

Most breakage is from abuse. Second is wheel hop.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

The LSD has them also.

 

Most breakage is from abuse. Second is wheel hop.

 

Except 4 pinion, and not allowed to freewheel around like an open

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Well I don't know. We're comparing apples and oranges.  I guess if the side and spider gears are up to the job perhaps a wildly spinning open diff IS more destructive than an LSD that more closely locks them together....    

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Quite a few guys down here are running the R-160 with no issues. Two of them with VG's and one is supercharged. No issues yet and they do hammer on them from time to time. 

Share this post


Link to post

UFO?

Yep.

 

I still have a pair of Snap-On pliers that he gave me as a gift. I use them every day. Good guy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

As far as grinding the housing to get the LSD to fit, it's a very small amount of grinding that's required. Just the two nubs on the inside of the housing.

Share this post


Link to post

It’s interesting this topic comes up while I’m working on swapping a CLSD carrier to a 4.44 housing.

 

The ring gear of the 4.44 is a bit taller/thicker than the 3.7, maybe because of the gear count difference? Trying to assemble it, the ring gear hits the housing on the one side, so the carrier can’t slide in. The two nubs for the recess of the side cover bolts is what needs to be ground (left side of the case looking in the housing), maybe 2mm, for the carrier to slide in. I measured the depth of the bolt hole before grinding to make sure I wouldn’t breach the bolt hole.

Share this post


Link to post

I actually switched out my 3.70 gears to 3.54. My friend just did it and dropped about 500 RPM on the highway with the VG. A V6 should not be buzzing like a 4 cylinder. 

Share this post


Link to post

The R160 LSD can handle Frank driving a turbo KA.  Enough said.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.