Just bought a 521

[Crashtd420]

1 minute ago, mainer311 said:

Thanks man. Are all 10 the same length? The R16 in my roadster uses 1 longer and 9 shorter.

I think there were 4 long ones.. they do give you the correct ones you need.....

I ran them all the way down... I think one or 2 I needed to back out a turn or so, so I had full engagement of the nut on top.... 

[datzenmike]

Well if the gasket is blown or in the process of blowing, tightening the bolts more won't help. Only if the bolt(s) are for some reason loose, might this help.

 

One last thing. I had a '64 Dodge when I was young and it had a leak when driving but couldn't find it when stopped. Turned out that it was a pin hole in a heater hose that required the engine to be revved up before it would spray out. Maybe block any possibility of coolant being sprayed onto the back of the head first. Got be be cheaper than ARP and changing a gasket that doesn't need it.

 

6 minutes ago, mainer311 said:

Thanks man. Are all 10 the same length? The R16 in my roadster uses 1 longer and 9 shorter.

 

( 4 are long , 6 are shorter) Longer ones are for the cam towers

[Crashtd420]

Summit has them for 110..... 

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F333244292331

[mainer311]

22 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

Well if the gasket is blown or in the process of blowing, tightening the bolts more won't help. Only if the bolt(s) are for some reason loose, might this help.

 

I don't think it's "blown" in the sense that I have a combustion chamber leak, there's just a coolant passage near the back of the block and the gasket is weeping. If that means it's blown, then I guess it's blown. Higher clamping force ARP studs may fix it, or it may not. It fixed my roadster in that sense. I removed one bolt at a time, dropped the stud down in, then torqued the nut until all of them were replaced. It fixed my leak and haven't had a problem since. I was hoping that I could get away with the same fix. 

 

I'll try your suggestion of revving it up tonight when it's cold and see what happens. 

[banzai510(hainz)]

You can do the head in 2 to 3 hours if you got the timming chain wedge.

 

ck make sure the core plug is good and the hose is not cracked.  Or even that L shaped out put of the head. They do rust out after awhile or maybe crack.

 

 

don't use that head seal stuff it just plugs up other stuff later. Like your header and radiator

Edited July 25, 2019 by banzai510(hainz)

[mainer311]

26 minutes ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

You can do the head in 2 to 3 hours if you got the timming chain wedge.

 

Yeah, I've been meaning to buy one of those.

[banzai510(hainz)]

Be honest I was always scared to do a head with the motor intack with front cover fully on.

Key is getting that Blue wedge and you jam it doen the front hard till you feel it go past the tensioner. The replace or move cam sprocket(mark sprocket first. then put back together. One might have to rotate tha cam to induce slack but If I can do it anybody can.

 

last time I did it was to change cam positions from 2 to 1 .  I didnt notice a difference myself

[wayno]

I do not run pressurized coolant systems myself, I tear off the center rubber piece on the spring loaded cap and use coolant reservoirs.

I don't have a lot of leaks but when I do the temp rises slowly, as I lose coolant slowly being it not under pressure, and when I do have a leak it is almost always a hose or the intake gasket around them coolant holes because an intake nut/bolt worked its way loose or actually fell out.

I had one head gasket coolant leak, that one turned out to be the head bolt being loose because the threads got pulled out during the torque procedure, I had it fixed and used ARP studs and have never had an issue since, this was on my LZ23 block, the leak was right at the bolt near the thermostat, and #1 cylinder was pressurizing my coolant system.

Head gasket coolant leaks are very rare, it doesn't happen a lot unless one over heats the engine.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Long before ARP head studs existed, many racing engines were built using OEM head bolts. Here I am on my soapbox again shouting to the world that unless you're making hundreds of HP or running to 9000 RPMs or running nitrous, you don't need ARP head studs. Some of you have said that ARP studs are easier to find than OEM L28 head bolts. Maybe that's a solid argument, I haven't tried buying head bolts lately. 

 

The best protection against a blowing head gasket is to use an OEM quality gasket in the beginning. So many of the aftermarket gaskets I have seen being sold aren't any good at all.

 

Re-torquing a head after it has been run for a few heat cycles is also good insurance, but it won't fix a leak that exists.

 

There are reasons other than overheating, that can cause a gasket to fail. Acidic water, too much timing (detonation attacking the sealing rings), having the engine sit for long periods of time without running, erosion in the aluminum head or the iron block, etc.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[banzai510(hainz)]

10 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Re-torquing a head after it has been run for a few heat cycles is also good insurance, but it won't fix a leak that exists

 Ill run a Felpro on a stock or slightly larger L16 bore

L18/20 I would do a better gasket

[mainer311]

You’ll get higher clamping forces with ARP studs, and there’s significantly less risk in stripping out the threads in the block. That’s worth the $110 to me.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

That's what you call a solution looking for a problem.

 

ARP's torque spec is 60 #. Nissan is 57 # for stock bolts. How is 3# of torque going to fix the problem?

[banzai510(hainz)]

if moto is a L16 stock clamping is only like 40pounds anyway. turbo bolts up to 60

[mainer311]

32 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

That's what you call a solution looking for a problem.

 

ARP's torque spec is 60 #. Nissan is 57 # for stock bolts. How is 3# of torque going to fix the problem?

 

There's a few factors at play here, not just a torque spec. 

 

1.) The torque applied to an ARP thread is transmitted more to tensile forces in the studs and less to friction from the threads in block. Why? Because the coarse threads in the block stay stationary, and the fine threads on the nut create the higher tensile force because of the more shallow pitch angle, and less material interface on the threads.

2.) ARP assembly lube further increases this ratio because the ARP nut is broad and flat and rides on a similar hardness washer. The stock head bolts are much small in diameter and bite into the soft aluminum head.

3.) While the stock head bolts are probably fine for stock engines (which mine is) it's an easy solution to a weepy head gasket, even if clamping force isn't much greater. The fact that heat seems to fix the problem suggests that the leak I have is extremely small.

Edited July 25, 2019 by mainer311

[d.p]

I assume if you switch to studs you would pull the head anyway right?  Also that blue wedge is sold out everywhere IIRC so your best bet would be to make one.  

[mainer311]

15 minutes ago, d.p said:

I assume if you switch to studs you would pull the head anyway right?  Also that blue wedge is sold out everywhere IIRC so your best bet would be to make one.  

 

I'd actually try to do it with the head in place and just do each one individually. I had great success using that method on the R16 in my roadster.

 

I don't see those blue things anywhere either. If it comes to that, I'll try to use the 2x4 template method.

[wayno]

I used ARP studs on my LZ23 because I was tired of making 89mm L block head gaskets and the front left head bolt threads in the block got stripped out, it was the second issue I had with the head gasket, I used the ARP studs the 3rd time and I do not recall having had an issue since(8 years).

I would also agree with mainer311 that 60lbs on a stock head bolt with that thick washer is different than the finer threads on the ARP studs with that nut, but one has to keep in mind that them studs may also stretch more, so 60lbs (57lbs??) on the stock head bolt, it may take 61lbs with the fine threads on the ARP studs to exert the same amount of clamping pressure, but I am guessing.

I do not claim to know anything about head bolt geometry or whatever you want to call it, but in my opinion 60lbs of torque on the coarse threads of stock head bolts is not the same as 60lbs of torque on fine threads of the ARP studs, in my opinion one will have more clamping force using fines threads for the same 60lbs of torque, but I do not have the equipment to actually test this opinion of mine.

Edited July 25, 2019 by wayno

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

12 hours ago, mainer311 said:

 

There's a few factors at play here, not just a torque spec. 

 

1.) The torque applied to an ARP thread is transmitted more to tensile forces in the studs and less to friction from the threads in block. Why? Because the coarse threads in the block stay stationary, and the fine threads on the nut create the higher tensile force because of the more shallow pitch angle, and less material interface on the threads.

2.) ARP assembly lube further increases this ratio because the ARP nut is broad and flat and rides on a similar hardness washer. The stock head bolts are much small in diameter and bite into the soft aluminum head.

3.) While the stock head bolts are probably fine for stock engines (which mine is) it's an easy solution to a weepy head gasket, even if clamping force isn't much greater. The fact that heat seems to fix the problem suggests that the leak I have is extremely small.

Again, solution looking for a problem. New studs aren't going to fix the problem, they might just mask the symptoms. If you're blowing head gaskets, look elsewhere than the head bolts.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

BTW - garden hose stuffed with a solid round piece in the end works great for a chain blocker.

[datzenmike]

19 hours ago, mainer311 said:

 

There's a few factors at play here, not just a torque spec. 

 

 

2.) ARP assembly lube further increases this ratio because the ARP nut is broad and flat and rides on a similar hardness washer. The stock head bolts are much small in diameter and bite into the soft aluminum head.

 

 

Not so. L heads have 0.10" thick washers under the head bolts.... which are 0.675" wide at the contact point and are round not hex shape. They do not bight into the soft aluminum heads at all.

[d.p]

If it were me I would just pull the head, give you a chance to drop the tensioner and have to fuck with all that mess.  Joking side mine was leaking on that back side too when I got it which got me to pull the head and replaced the gasket.  Hasn't leaked back there since.  

 

 

[mainer311]

14 hours ago, d.p said:

If it were me I would just pull the head, give you a chance to drop the tensioner and have to fuck with all that mess.  Joking side mine was leaking on that back side too when I got it which got me to pull the head and replaced the gasket.  Hasn't leaked back there since.  

 

 

 

Yeah, I found that thread the other day and was reading through it.

[mainer311]

15 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

Not so. L heads have 0.10" thick washers under the head bolts.... which are 0.675" wide at the contact point and are round not hex shape. They do not bight into the soft aluminum heads at all.

 

Gotcha. I was trying to see from pictures and couldn’t see any washers.

[Crashtd420]

Hey mainer311 you going to Lars Anderson Japanese car days this year....

A couple of us are trying to meet up before to caravan in together.... 

It's being discussed in the event section...

[mainer311]

2 hours ago, Crashtd420 said:

Hey mainer311 you going to Lars Anderson Japanese car days this year....

A couple of us are trying to meet up before to caravan in together.... 

It's being discussed in the event section...

I’m hoping to make it! I’ll meander on over to the event section and see what’s up.