My 1971 521

[thisismatt]

29 minutes ago, d.p said:

Ok? But how do I test for the full 12 volts at START?  LIke I said when the key is at START I get no spark from the #1 plug.  If the key is in between ON and START (me just holding it in a position that the engine isn't turning over yet) I get spark.  Shouldn't I get spark from the #1 plug when the key is in the START position and the engine is turning over trying to start?  

 

It seems to me I am getting wildly inconsistent spark so what would cause that? And no enough to start this mfer. 

 

 

Did you read wayno's post?

[d.p]

6 minutes ago, thisismatt said:

Did you read wayno's post?

 

Yeah and I asked which wire was the exciter wire but no answer yet.  Do you know?   And if I pull that wire what am I looking for?  

 

I also have an EI dizzy I could swap.  But I think the problem is just spark to the wire/plugs which I don't seem to be getting.  Could the pertronix have shit the bed?  

[DanielC]

This is how I wires a matchbox distributor to work with a stock "use with a ballast resistor" ignition coil.

The black with white wire comes from the ignition switch, and supplies power in the run position.

The black with red wire comes from the ignition switch, and supplies power in the start position.

This retains the stock full voltage to the coil, bypass the ballast when cranking the engine. In the run position the coil and the matchbox get power through the ballast resistor.

 

The stock 521 ignition switch should power the black with white wire, ignition power to the ballast resistor, the black with red stripe wire, power directly to the ignition coil, and in my case, power to the Matchbox "B" terminal, and the black with a yellow stripe wire that powers the starter solenoid in the crank position.  Power to all three black with a color striped wires.

[d.p]

At this point I am running out of ideas and might as well swap the el dizzy in.  Do I need to be at TDC to just pull the existing one and drop the el in? 

Edited November 4, 2018 by d.p

[thisismatt]

1 hour ago, d.p said:

 

Yeah and I asked which wire was the exciter wire but no answer yet.  Do you know?   And if I pull that wire what am I looking for?  

 

I also have an EI dizzy I could swap.  But I think the problem is just spark to the wire/plugs which I don't seem to be getting.  Could the pertronix have shit the bed?  

Basically the light gauge black w/yellow stripe wire that triggers the starter solenoid. Here is a helpful diagram you can trace & test in the start position.

 

[d.p]

Ok so disconnect that one and see if it gets 12v to the coil? Still not clear on how to measure 12v to the coil with it in the truck.  Have a test light and multimeter. 

[thisismatt]

Meter set to lowest DC volts setting above 12v (eg 200v), connect meter positive lead to coil positive and meter negative to good ground. Turn to start position with meter visible and I would also slowly/gently move the key around a bit to test for intermittent connectivity.

[mainer311]

57 minutes ago, d.p said:

At this point I am running out of ideas and might as well swap the el dizzy in.  Do I need to be at TDC to just pull the existing one and drop the el in? 

 

Nope, pull the dizzy cap off and see where the rotor is pointing. Take picture if necessary. Remove old dizzy and drop in new one, making sure tang drops into slot and the rotor points in the same direction.

[d.p]

19 minutes ago, thisismatt said:

Meter set to lowest DC volts setting above 12v (eg 200v), connect meter positive lead to coil positive and meter negative to good ground. Turn to start position with meter visible and I would also slowly/gently move the key around a bit to test for intermittent connectivity.

 

I have a Klein cl2000 and I think I am doing it right. If so I see around 5-6V at ON and around 11 at START.  

 

Heres a video. Let me know if it works.  

 

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by d.p

[wayno]

OK, I am not sure how you have you distributor wired, here is what you posted

 

#1 Ground wire from dizzy pedestal to body

#2 red wire from dizzy to ballast resistor

#3 Black wire from dizzy to coil -

#4 black/red wire to + coil and splits to ballast resistor

#5 Green/yellow to + coil

 

Number one appears to be correct, I do not have this wire connected on all my engines.

Number two, as far as I know this wire goes to the positive side of the coil, but with a ballast resistor involved I do not know if this wire needs a full 12 volts or not.

Number three appears to be correct.

Number four, this wire only goes one place, it goes directly to the positive side of the coil, it supplies 12 volts to the coil when the key is in the start position.

Number five, I do not know what this wire is, I did not have this wire and I do not have a 521 wiring harness in any 521 I own anymore to check.

 

The exciter wire is the small wire that goes to the starter, it is the only wire you can remove without using a wrench, the reason I say remove that wire is so the engine is not turning over when you test the positive side of the coil for power when the key is in the start position.

[d.p]

wayno, this is the document I followed when I installed the pertronix last year..

 

 

And I tested with that wire disconnected and posted the results above.  So it looks like its getting almost 12V at START but still not enough to get it to start.  So something is fucking wrong and I got no idea what.  What would cause the plugs only to spark when I initially turn the key to START?  It also sparks when I turn the key off but nothing when the engine is cranking...  That has got to point to something right? 

[wayno]

Where is the black with red line wire connected in that diagram above?

[d.p]

Coil + and then another black/red to the ballast resistor from the coil +.

[d.p]

I pulled the pertronix and dropped the el dizzy in but the rotors didn't line up.  But it almost started and now I am getting spark to the plugs so it must have been the dizzy?  So now I can turn it to TDC and arrange the plugs wires?  El dizzy is flipped with the module facing the drivers side.  

 

Can someone just confirm the order of plug wires at TDC with the flipped dizzy? 

[wayno]

OK, so as long as that black wire with the red line does not go from the positive side of the coil to the side of the ballast resister that has the red wire going to the distributor you should be fine, but I have no idea what green/yellow wire is, does it go to a tach?

[thisismatt]

1 hour ago, d.p said:

 

I have a Klein cl2000 and I think I am doing it right. If so I see around 5-6V at ON and around 11 at START.  

 

Heres a video. Let me know if it works.  

 

 

1

 

Yeah, it worked.  So I would check that the start position maintains the 12v when you hold it like normal starting, and jiggle slightly to make sure it maintains.

[d.p]

Too late...I pulled that pertronix and dropped an el dizzy in.  Its running smooth now...However I am running out of advance on the dizzy so I think its off somewhat.  I had to clock my oil pump when I put the pertronix in so maybe I need to go back and adjust it.  But right now its purring along...  at 12 BTDC the timing light lines up with the second to left notch on the crank.

 

Couple questions..

 

1. Is there a ground coming of the el dizzy? 

2. I have an MSD high performance coil  (MSD blaster 2), can I use it with the el dizzy?  If so how? Eliminate the resistor?  

 

TIA my dudes  

[DanielC]

There are two places you adjust distributor clocking to set the ignition advance.  There is a bolt that goes down through the plate between the distributor, and pedestal, and a bolt that goes up through the plate into the distributor body.  You probably know this, but somebody new to Datsuns reading this post may not.   If you cannot get the proper amount of ignition timing advance by loosening both bolts, then you need to drop the oil pump on a L-engine, and change the clocking of the oil pump/distributor drive spindle. 

 

If you are close to the limit of adjustment with both distributor bolts loose, but can still get the timing advance set with a Matchbox distributor, that is OK, a Matchbox distributor does not slowly retard the timing as the points wear. 

 

Stock Matchbox distributors had a 1/4 male spade terminal, usually on the screw that holds the vacuum advance mechanism to the distributor body.  I run a wire from this terminal to one of the small M6-1.0 bolts that go from the cylinder head front into the cam chain cover, with a ring terminal to connect the wire to the bolt, and cylinder head.

 

Ideally, run a stock Nissan matchbox ignition coil.  I think we have been through this before.  Stock Nissan electronics are usually much higher quality than aftermarket stuff.   I just measured the resistance on two Nissan Matchbox ignition coils with a Fluke model 177 multimeter.  They both measures at 1.3 ohms, not connected to anything.  I checked with the meter leads both ways, red lead on coil positive, and red lead on coil negative.  Two coils, two measurements each, four measurement total, 1.3 ohms.   I have not checked my ohm meter against a known standard resistance.   If the primary resistance on the MSD coil is significantly lower than 1.3 ohms, I would not use it, or use a ballast resistor with that coil.

 

I have been running a Matchbox distributor on Ratsun, one of my 521 trucks since 2013, with a stock 521 "use with a ballast resistor" ignition coil, no ignition problems.   If you use stock ballast resistor coil, leave spark plug gap around .032 or so.  If you use a non ballast resistor coil, spark gap can be increased to around .045? 

 

If you eliminate the ballast resistor, the black with a red stripe wire, and the black with a white stripe wire both go to coil positive, and with a Matchbox distributor, "B" terminal on the matchbox.

 

 

[d.p]

Thanks that helps.  Running the stock coil now but do have that MSD, is there any benefit to MSD over stock?

 

As far as adjustment goes at 12BTDC it lines up just right around 700-750 RPMs at idle.  But at 32 BTDC and 3000RPMS or so its way off.  When I put the el dizzy in the rotor didn't line up and I just put the plugs wires in the same order as they were on the pertronix dizzy and hoped for the best. 

 

But even doing it that way the truck seems to be running and idling just fine.  

Edited November 4, 2018 by d.p

[datzenmike]

17 hours ago, wayno said:

OK, this is what you need to do, pull the exciter wire off the starter so it doesn't turn over when you turn the key to the start position, then have someone hold the key in the start position and you check to see if you have 12 volts of power to the positive side of the coil, if you don't then either the key assembly is wore out or someone bypassed/removed the 12 volt start wire to clean up the engine bay wiring, I have found that engines that start easy will start even with the bypass wire removed as when you let off the key the engine is still turning over and they start, and this is from the habit of only turning the key to the start position and letting off as it always started that way in the past, but when it starts to get colder outside they don't start as easy and all of a sudden there is an issue.

What I did to get my truck to start before I figured out the issue was to have a wire with 2 alligator clips, one big one for the positive post of the battery and another smaller one for the positive side of the coil, it started every time after that and I didn't need the wire as after it warmed up, I just hit the key and got the engine turning let off and it started.

You need to understand that when the engine is turning over and you do not have power to the coil it will never start, but as the engine turns when you let off the key the coil gets power but the engine is still turning, I used to just keep clicking the starter and letting off and it would eventually start, at least till it got cold outside, then I had to use the bypass jumper wire.

If it starts with the bypass wire every time, just carry one with you at all times, basically your hot wiring it, now if you have a auto anti-theft alarm/system, that could also cause issues.

 

Sometimes my car cranks and cranks and when I let go of the key boom she starts. This doesn't happen all the time.

[wayno]

I would check how hot the coil is if it quits running again, if it is hot it is the wrong coil or wired wrong for the type of coil it is.

 

I referred to this cranking issue in an earlier post Dmike, I had deleted the black/red wire for some reason, maybe it happened when I went from the L16 to an L20b/5spd/matchbox, but it started fine the way I started it by just hitting the starter for just a moment, but once it got cold and it was in need of a tune-up it was a lot harder to start, I used that jumper wire I mentioned and it started right away, I got curious several weeks later and figured it out, re-connected the black/red wire and all was good after that, I believe that I just didn't understand what all the wires going to the coil were for during that L20b upgrade and cleaned it up causing the other issues later.

 

[Rick-rat]

MSD would just look cooler, not work any better

[datzenmike]

Just paint the coil red to get a hotter spark.

[mainer311]

4 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

Sometimes my car cranks and cranks and when I let go of the key boom she starts. This doesn't happen all the time.

 

My roadster does that for some reason too. I’m pretty sure it’s because the starter motor current stops, which reduces the voltage drop on the entire system, and you get an instant of hotter spark while the engine is still rotating over. I think it’s directly affected by how good of a charge is on the battery.

[datzenmike]

I have the EI distributor which I think doesn't care if the input voltage changes. I'm not sure but sometime it sure feels like it fires up as I release the key. It shouldn't matter as both the run and the start wires to the coil and the ballast are joined together when using an EI.