Freebird: SR20VE+T 510 Wagon

[volkswagner]

On 12/22/2018 at 10:57 PM, ol' 320 said:

does Sam have a thread somewhere on his 521?

I do but it's accidentally in the >trucks>521 section, whoops

 

[volkswagner]

Next up was mounting the turbo. The idea was to use a DET manifold and cut off the T28 flange and weld on a T3 flange at the appropriate angle. 
I had thought the stock manifolds were an open "log" design. As it turns out that is very wrong. They actually have separately cast runners that twist past each other and combine at the turbo housing. In fact cylinders 4+1 and 2+3 only combine in the manifold and there are two exiting orifices that then merge in the housing. This meant that as I cut back the angle, the separating walls caused  choke points. I was able to get satisfactory results by grinding out all of the walls just before the outlet which creates a 4>1 manifold that dumps into the turbo rather than the 4>2 that it originally was. Not Ideal but it will do for now and I'll want to do a tube header whenever I upgrade turbos in the future anyway.

The fitment process was a bit tedious, any small change in the flange  position was magnified once the turbo was bolted up.

This meant the setup went in and out and regrinded/welded and back in at least a dozen times. Eventually I got it where I wanted.

 

 

To fully weld the flange I had to do some research since, I've never welded cast before. Turns out pre-heat and a controlled cool are the key to prevent cracking.
I rolled the BBQ into the shed and brought it up to full grille temp, 600F or so. Once the manifold was heat soaked it seemed to weld quite nice.

Then I let it sit under the cover while I stepped down the temp over a few hours. No cracks! but we'll see how it holds up to engine cycles.

After grinding and welding it seemed best to touch up the flange surface. The inlets were off by more than I expected. I'm sure they would still have sealed u when bolted tight but it's nice to keep that stress out of it.

Least step was to grind off some flashing just for good looks and coated with black VHT.

 

 

New studs for the turbo, M10 ratehr than the M8's used on T28. I hear chatter on the webs that the T28's lose their seal alot easier due to the smaller M8's stretching whereas the M10 T3 flanges seem much less leak prone, not sure as to the truth in that.

I was tempted to tack the nuts in place once torqued but decided to try a nut locking tabs first. 
I made some up from a spare stainless gasket. 

With the manifold / turbo installed I focused on the plumbing. In retrospect, I should have installed the lines on the turbo first. Some of the fittings were VERY hard to get on in situ.

All in place and happy with the fitment so far.

 

Right about now is when I came across a post on RB turbos that I hadn't up to this point (somehow, thought I had read it all) This particular post identified casting marks and which car they came from. To my dismay, in the same day as buttoning up the turbo I find out, its from an RB20 NOT an RB25 as advertised... ?
This brings it's efficient power range from about 300 down to 250. They can still be pushed up towards 280 with a little added heat. 
Oh well, lets me develop a solid tune at lower risk power levels and gives more motivation to upgrade later.

 

Moved on to the cold side plumbing. I was able to find a jog pipe that was the perfect shape (couple inches of length trimmed off) to line up with the air outlet with intercooler inlet. 

It also left enough room underneath to slip the air filter up behind the headlights using a 45 elbow.

Tucked the boost control solenoid next to the brake bias valve.

 

Still have to weld in the BOV and tackle the exhaust.

 

I spent a bit of time trying to figure out what to do with the intake manifold. The VE manifold could possibly be cut/welded again until it fit but in the end it would just be more work to get a terrible looking poorly performing solution.
I have an S13 and S14 manifold around. The S14 doesn't line up at all. The S13 intake actually is pretty close but the runner outlets are spaced differntly and te throttle body angle would have to be modified. This brings it right back to the same issues as the VE manifold.

Instead, I'm going to try and fab one. I'll make a custom manifold that welds on to the stock runners/injector bosses.

I like to think Greddy does it's research to make their parts perform well so I looked to them for geometry.

Then using sheet metal and stock mandrel bent pipes I approximated it as closely as I could. This gives me about 3 liters of volume which is well above the "equal to engine cpacity" rule of thumb for manifold volume.

This is  45 degree pipe instead of the 30 degree pipe I will use but it shows the idea.

Then as Jeff mentioned, I bought a Pusar GTIR and have been spending most of my free time on that the last few weeks. 
That's nearly driveable now though so, back to this soon!


 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by volkswagner

[datzenmike]

14 minutes ago, volkswagner said:

Next up was mounting the turbo. The idea was to use a DET manifold and cut off the T28 flange and weld on a T3 flange at the appropriate angle. 
I had thought the stock manifolds were an open "log" design. As it turns out that is very wrong. They actually have separately cast runners that twist past each other and combine at the turbo housing. In fact cylinders 4+1 and 2+3 only combine in the manifold and there are two exiting orifices that then merge in the housing. ?

 

 

According to Corky Bell this is the correct way for a 4 cylinder to feed into a turbo as there is only one pulse per 180 degrees. Every effort should be made to keep each pulse strong and undiluted from spilling back onto other empty pipes. ?

[volkswagner]

As well as pulse overlap, I believe it's best to keep them separate as long as possible to maintain exhaust velocity which is quite critical for driving the exhaust wheel.

[ol' 320]

On 1/5/2019 at 12:55 PM, volkswagner said:

To fully weld the flange I had to do some research since, I've never welded cast before. Turns out pre-heat and a controlled cool are the key to prevent cracking.

 

Sam:

 

I wanted to comment on your quote above about welding on your cast iron manifold.

A friend and I used to vintage race a 1912 Buick - most recently at Laguna Seca back when the event was referred to as the Monterey Historic Races.

 

This 4 cylinder Buick has cast Iron "jugs" - the cylinders are large castings that pair two cylinders together. The rocker arms are also cast iron pieces and break and break and break.... After more than a century, some of the rockers look like the deformed knuckles on an arthritic invalid's hands.  To make repairs, we first heated these in a pottery kiln, then brazed these back together. As you discovered, the key was to then drop the heat slowly over time until they assumed room temperature. 

 

Your statement above reminded me of this infernal process:)

 

 

 

 

Anxious to see how this wagon turns out. Love all the pics. 

[volkswagner]

9 minutes ago, ol' 320 said:

 

Sam:

 

I wanted to comment on your quote above about welding on your cast iron manifold.

A friend and I used to vintage race a 1912 Buick - most recently at Laguna Seca back when the event was referred to as the Monterey Historic Races.

 

This 4 cylinder Buick has cast Iron "jugs" - the cylinders are large castings that pair two cylinders together. The rocker arms are also cast iron pieces and break and break and break.... After more than a century, some of the rockers look like the deformed knuckles on an arthritic invalid's hands.  To make repairs, we first heated these in a pottery kiln, then brazed these back together. As you discovered, the key was to then drop the heat slowly over time until they assumed room temperature. 

 

Your statement above reminded me of this infernal process:)

 

 

 

 

Anxious to see how this wagon turns out. Love all the pics. 

 

1912 wow! and I though our 50 year old cars were a challenge!
Even cast rockers... Is there rules preventing the use of modern materials? Seems like that would be a worthy place to get some real steel.

I'm just as anxious haha. Getting close now.

[ol' 320]

Rules be damned....

 

Someone would have to be a true living fossil to discern the cheat if we scanned these and then had them machined out of steel. That project has been sidelined while my friend has been obsessed with collecting vintage racing go-karts, but the Buick is hopefully going back on the road before then end of 2020.

 

PM me and day and I will send you some pics of our old dinosaurs. The vintage pic in my profile is of a 1912 National. That very car raced here in the Central Valley. I have been trying to find it since 1998 - but a friend has its twin. The Buick is a Model 32 White Streak - and was a former fairgrounds racer in the Bay Area. He inherited it from his grandfather.

[volkswagner]

52 minutes ago, ol' 320 said:

Rules be damned....

 

Someone would have to be a true living fossil to discern the cheat if we scanned these and then had them machined out of steel. That project has been sidelined while my friend has been obsessed with collecting vintage racing go-karts, but the Buick is hopefully going back on the road before then end of 2020.

 

PM me and day and I will send you some pics of our old dinosaurs. The vintage pic in my profile is of a 1912 National. That very car raced here in the Central Valley. I have been trying to find it since 1998 - but a friend has its twin. The Buick is a Model 32 White Streak - and was a former fairgrounds racer in the Bay Area. He inherited it from his grandfather.

 

Sounds like a fun project. I have a scanner at work I've been meaning to learn to use and some CAD skills...

[volkswagner]

It seems like a small thing but, it's been so long since the grille/lights were in place that it makes it feel so much closer.

 

On to the intake manifold. Began by sectioning the 3" diamter 30 degree bent tube down the middle.  

 

cut off wheeled the flat patterns.

 

Borrowed a few flanges from the stock VE manifold.

 

Mock up with the base plate looked good so I kept moving forward with some tacks.

 

Couldn't resist dropping it in the bay to take a look. ?

 

More mock up.

 

All prepped and ready to machine the base plate and weld it up.

 

 

More work on the hot side. Chopped the 3 bolt flange off the RB down pipe, want a V-band.

Test fit shows the waste gate bypass was too close for comfort to where the U-joint will live.

 

I had the 2.5" down pipe with 1" bypass. The then needed to merge into a 3" pipe, make the bend under the car, contain a V-band and then get a flex pipe.
I decided to put the V-band in the bend, this gave me a degree of adjustment for placing the flex pipe by rotating it in the clamp.

 

Added another bung to the downturn for a potential EGT to go with the AFR.
Satisfied with the results in general. Still learning with the welder of course. I got a TON of splatter which I'm not used to, also it stuck to the material rather than the splatter I'm used to that can be knocked off. Maybe this is due to it being SS? Any thoughts?

 

Fitment ended up nice and tight to the tranny and mostly straight into the tranny mount indent. 

 

It seems like my speedo cable has to sit on my exhaust. Is this going to just melt right off or is the cable made for the heat?

[mrbigtanker]

Wow man nice work, love the plenum your making, you got some skills. ?

[WAGON JON]

This thread is mind-blowing! So much time and effort! A gamut of great ideas and innovative effort! Keep up the good work! One thought, your fuel pump might be a bit on the poor quality side. You may consider a better unit as the lack of reliable fuel would hamper the quality time factor in the seat!

[volkswagner]

On 2/11/2019 at 10:47 AM, WAGON JON said:

This thread is mind-blowing! So much time and effort! A gamut of great ideas and innovative effort! Keep up the good work! One thought, your fuel pump might be a bit on the poor quality side. You may consider a better unit as the lack of reliable fuel would hamper the quality time factor in the seat!

 

Quite possible. I want to built a quick and dirty injector test setup. Use a spare fuel rail and pump it up then just turn them on 100% for a certain time and measure volumes.
I could then at least make sure they are all balanced even if the accuracy isn't the greatest. This would also give me an idea of the pump capacity if I put a gauge on and look for pressure drop. We'll see if I get that far.

Either way. AFR gauge should be a decent indicator of the pump doing it's job and I can swap quite easily if needed, one benefit to a inline vs in tank. 

[WAGON JON]

A good quality inexpensive pump can be found here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Bosch-044-300LPH-Inline-Fuel-Pump-E85-Safe-30-Day-Return-0580254044-USA/322992751352?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908131621%26meid%3Dd2d4edfdcad849c6b7bdebcdb4069791%26pid%3D100678%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D322992751352%26itm%3D322992751352&_trksid=p2481888.c100678.m3607&_trkparms=pageci%3Ab814c7e3-2f1c-11e9-8636-74dbd180b594|parentrq%3Ae40293001680a9ccc6f5e583fffbd4b9|iid%3A1

 

Glad I didn't have to type this one out by hand, it would have taken half my life, lol!

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by WAGON JON

[datsunfreak]

On 2/10/2019 at 6:46 PM, volkswagner said:

It seems like my speedo cable has to sit on my exhaust. Is this going to just melt right off

 

Probably.  ?

 

Some heat insulation wrap will make it live for a while at least. Turbo exhausts do run fairly hot, but speedo cables are cheap, so...  ?

 

[BrothersGarage]

$13 and wrap your speedo cable and have some lefovers: https://smile.amazon.com/SunplusTrade-Exhaust-Motorcycle-Fiberglass-Stainless/dp/B01KVYH66U/

 

Sick sick sick build btw. 

[volkswagner]

Good idea guys, I'll give that a shot! 

I'd like to go digital gauges in the long run in which case a GPS speedo would make the cable redundant, hopefully the wrap will make the cable last until then.

 

[Atomic]

Are you using mig for ss welding? I had an issue with my exhaust manifold when I didn't have teflon coated inner tubing and the ss wire got stuck once in a while and that got me really annoyed and spattery results from time to time. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Atomic

[volkswagner]

Most of my time has been taken up by the GTI-R recently. However, that's starting to be a bit more reliable so I'm hoping to be on the goon a bit more.
On the other hand, the enduro season is fast approaching and Swamp thing needs some help. We'll see.

 

Finally! This was one of those annoying little details that's been nagging me for months. 

I've been looking for an upper radiator hose since I dropped the motor in. Everyone I tried wouldn't work just barely.
I was just about ready to make it a two piece run when I found this one. Gates 21922. 

 

A little trim to fit. Picture makes it look closer to the head than it really is. Perfect fit, FWD SR water neck to stock location 510 radiator outlet.

 

Dropped in the wide band. The old E-brake pass through was conveniently located and I should be able to snake the EGT wire through there as well.

 

Speaking of wires. That's where I'm at. Starting to rough in the mega squirt harness. 

 

Some things end up in free space without the intake manifold but it sure gives better access.



 

 

[volkswagner]

I didn't get very far with the wiring before I decided I needed to get an alternator situated before deciding how to route my wires. 

Two options, on the right side where the FWD alt typically lives execpet the stock setup won't work due to the turbo inlet.

 

or on the left side where the RWD alt sits. Although the stock setup again won't work since the stock FWD oil boss is in the way...

 

I headed to the  junk yard to hunt , I was looking for a Nissan Quest alternator which is a popular upgrade on the SR's it sits on the left. Then I found this seemingly brand new unit out of a 2001 Sentra. It comes in at a similar 120A and has the added benefit of a clutched pulley. As well it is set up to swing from the right side of the block instead of the left. For weight distribution I was originally going to go for the left side but then I realized that there are a lot of hoses and filters and such on that side that it would be great to have better access to since the intake manifold will inhibit most work from above. So the right side would actually be much better for that reason.

 

It even matched the stock RWD bracket but of course there was no where to bolt that on the right side.

 

Another treasure from the yard, a Saturn Vue electric power steering column! Been wanting to get my hands on one of these for quite a while.

 

Couldn't help but do a comparison, this is all parts of electric and stock 510 laid out real position. Looks quite doable with a few welds 🙂

 

Fitting the motor under the dash will require some creativity though...

 

Spent some time mocking up a bracket to mount the new alt. Bolts to the stock AC compressor mounting holes.

 

 

Did require a bit of block clearance to let the belt leave the crank at a different clocking

 

 

Picked up an existing threaded hole on the block for tensioning.

 

It's all of a sudden looking very crowded on this side of the block, still have to put the steering column back in over here too.

 

 

A bit more work on the intake side. Learned myself how to program the CNC on our mill at work to get a flange cut for the runners

 

A bit of lead in radius

 

Matched up to the runners.

 

 

One more mock up before boxing it up to send to my brother for full welding.

 

 

[datsuntech]

Project is coming along quite nicely.

I do have one question though. No hate, just a question.

Why do you feel the need to have power steering?  

I have been driving 510s for 30 years. All sorts of power levels and engine configurations and tire widths, but never felt the need for power steering.

I remember when everyone was loading their cars with stereos or putting all sorts of electrical doodads in their cars (power locks, windows ..) The 90s 🙄

But I don't remember anyone pining for power steering.  Just an observation from an old guy.

Love the car though.  😁  

[volkswagner]

It's a good question. With a few answers.
There are 2 main things I use this for when its running, daily driving and autocross. That means a lot of parking in lots with sticky tires. 
As well, the steering rack I put in brings my ratio down to 2 turns lock-to-lock, much less and there fore much harder to turn than stock. 
Further more, if I can fit the kit to my 510 it will be easy to see whether we want it in our endurance 510. After 1 hour of tossing that thing around the track with brute force, I will freely admit my arms are spent. And if we ever want to be competitive we will have to do the max driving stint of 2 hours!.

 

Why this electric power steering when the JBC kit makes hydraulic power as easy as bolting in a hydraulic rack and mounting a pump that I have to the motor?
What are the two big negatives of PS? numb driving feel and parasitic power loss.
The electric setup is tuneable from 0 output to full motor output. That means if it's too numb, just dial it back, I've never seen a hydraulic setup do that!
Also, its electric so the parasitc loss is just in the alternator which has a power reserve (battery) to draw from so the actual engine doesn't need to provide all of the energy on demand like a hydraulic pump and instead charges up slowly over time.

As far as the 90's, I don't think they even had electric PS then.

Have you driven a 510 with PS? I just drove JEff's, it's wicked! 

[datsuntech]

Ya, no electric PS in the 90s at least in Nissans anyway. (Edit: apparently there was some in the 80s with micro cars JDM only(Suzuki, Mitsubishi) and the 90s with the NSX worldwide.)

Can't say I have. I have a buddy with a V8 510, no PS in his car. 

That being said, your explanation makes complete sense especially for an enduro car.

Anything you can do to reduce driver fatigue as long as it doesn't come with too much of a weight penalty.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thought process and look forward to seeing how it turns out.

 

Brock

Edited April 8, 2019 by datsuntech

[Josh K.]

Power steering FTW! @DADZSUN is making a bolt in conversion for your rack and pinion setup. I'll be buying one as it been on my list for a while also!

[BrothersGarage]

I remember seeing it on a Hoonigan video - something like a Celica / Miata power steering pump + easy aftermarket setup. It's somethign that I have as a bucket list item for my ride.

[volkswagner]

Wiring all mocked up. Marked and trimmed to length.

 

Then in to the house for more comfortable stripping/crimping/soldering/pinning/etc.

 

Many hours later, everything is where it should be. The chassis harness is all taped up. This ended up being nearly as much work as the engine harness since it was a bit hacked up.

 

I'm gong to wait until the engines running before taping the engine harness though.

 

A brief intermission from electrical to mount the throttle pedal. Donated from an Altima. It's the same pedal that will fit directly on to the stock 510 triangular mount, which is what I intended.  

 

Except, this didn't put the pedal in the ideal spot, and I liked the feel of the stiffer return spring better. 
As well, the steel mounting bracket just "feels" better, I've never heard of the plastic triangle breaking but oh well.

 

Back to wiring. I needed a place for all of the electronic boards. Wanted them all in one spot, easily accessible but not visible. Lots of room to run wires but not spread out.
Ended up with this arrangement. Case in back will house the megasquirt. Each main board is connected with velcro for easy removal. 

 

A couple of spacers hold the hinge in place meaning the whole panel can be removed with 2 screws.

 

Not too bad on the engine bay aesthetics.

 

The two white blocks on the front are magnets. When hinged up they land on the steel dash bar and connect with a satisfying clunk. Feels sturdy enough but it's possible a large pothole may knock it loose. We'll see.

 

Installed a main power breaker.

 

Gauges need attention soon.

 

Grabbed an EGT unit to increase my chances of tuning success. It has a signal output so I hope to at least datalog with the megasquirt. 

 

Has anyone ever used aerospace gauges? They have some sweet options! This one is about perfect to sit in the stock tacho location in the cluster!
Do want!

 

List is shrinking, slowly but surely.