zddp oil treatment info

[sjeff64]

For you guys that were @ blue lake meet here is so info what the guy was taking about on the reduced zinc content of oil I hope it helps! so I looked at a lot of articles (about 3 hrs worth)trying to find the definitive artilcle on optimun levels of zddp and I cant find one and I am tired of looking . I do remember he said about 1200 ppm minimum for Datsuns. If I am wrong oh well at least I posted the letters zddp

[datzenmike]

Here's another article

 

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

 

PAGE 3:

 

For in-service engines, consider running cam and lifter pre-lube in the oil all the time, not just during break-in. Another alternative is to use heavy-truck diesel-oil, which is formulated for18-wheelers and at present still has a full complement of traditional anti wear additives that have been significantly reduced in today's street-legal passenger car oils. (Though even diesel oils will start reducing zinc content in 2007 as big rigs gear up to receive catalytic converters.) Comp Cams swears by Shell Rotella T diesel oil for use in high-performance street cars. It's available in both mineral-based and full-synthetic formulations with both types containing basically the same superior additive package. Rotella viscosities are generally higher than today's modern formulations, but that's not a detriment for classic muscle cars. Diesel oils also add a superior detergent package that can keep the piston rings cleaner for better oil consumption control. The drawback, if any, would be on a high-mileage engine where blow-by can cause detergent to accumulate in the combustion chamber, possibly contributing to detonation.

 

Modern heavy-duty truck diesel oils with lots of ZDDP additives will be marked "CI-4" or "CI-4 Plus." They also easily pass the API Service SL gasoline engine performance test (but due to the high ZDDP content, not the SL chemical composition specs). Such truck oils are an economical and effective solution for flat-tappet longevity, according to many sources.

Modern heavy-duty truck diesel oils with lots of ZDDP additives will be marked "CI-4" or "CI-4 Plus." They also easily pass the API Service SL gasoline engine performance test (but due to the high ZDDP content, notthe SL chemical composition specs). Such truck oils are an economical and effective solution for flat-tappet longevity, according to many sources.

 

Even better than diesel oil are specially formulated racing motor oils. Although the most expensive solution,these oils usually contain even more anti wear additives than diesel truck oil, as well as other performance-enhancing ingredients specifically designed for hardcore, high-performance gasoline engine usage. According to Cosworth's Thomas Hayden, some diesel oils may not have friction modifiers that he claims are helpful in preventing piston scuff on high-performance gasoline engines, especially if running modern low multi viscosity oils. But Dan Arcy, technical marketing manager for Shell Lubricants, takes issue with the importance of friction modifiers,which he says "are only present in the very low viscosity GF-4 oils for fuel economy reasons."

 

 

At any rate, because they have a full load of anti wear additives,today's real racing motor oils are sometimes marked "for off-highway use only" on the bottle. They definitely aren't embossed with the consumer-friendly star burst insignia. Such racing oils won't meet manufacturer's warranty requirements for new vehicles, may degrade catalytic converter performance in long-term use, and in some cases have not been formally submitted to the oil industry's current benchmark performance test and validation procedure. But for older cars running flat tappets, they are the best oils available.

 

If you make provisions to adequately lubricate the lifter/lobe interface, use only quality lifters, fill the sump with diesel or racing motor oils, and follow proper break-in procedure, any flat-tappet cam failures should be minimized. It's a lot more effort than we've become accustomed to, but if you still want to run a high- performance flat-tappet cam, it's something you'll just have to get used to doing.

[Buzzbomb]

For you guys that were @ blue lake meet here is so info what the guy was taking about on the reduced zinc content of oil I hope it helps! so I looked at a lot of articles (about 3 hrs worth)trying to find the definitive artilcle on optimun levels of zddp and I cant find one and I am tired of looking . I do remember he said about 1200 ppm minimum for Datsuns. If I am wrong oh well at least I posted the letters zddp

 

I was actually wondering about this issue for older Datsuns, with my truck being an 1980. I'm familiar with this issue since I also hang on the old muscle car boards. The American V8 crowd and the way those engines are built IS important regarding this issue. I can only speak for a Nissan L20B, which I have in my '80 720, but that engine has NO resemblance whatsoever in the valvetrain to a PUSHROD operated hydraulic or solid lifter camshaft. This is important because the hydraulic pushrod V8's are pretty tough on cams, as are solid lifter V8's, simply by the way the whole shebang is layed out. There is very little if any real valve clearance in many of those engines, obviously because the pushrods constantly ride the lobes of the camshaft. That is in contrast to something like an L engine, which actually has a spec for clearance between the cam lobe and "rocker".

 

First, if you have a Datsun that has a catalytic converter, your catalytic converter WILL die if you use diesel oil or too much ZDDP. If you don't have a cat, then I don't see what it could hurt to use the additive. You can also go down to WalMart and buy Chevron Delo LE, which has enough ZDDP for pushrod V8 engines right out of the bottle. Actually, from tests done on a Chevy fan site, DELO is the ONLY real diesel oil that DOES meet the .12 Zinc spec. Rotella is NOT worth using anymore.

 

Personally, I don't see the reason why a setup like a Datsun L20 engine would have trouble with eating cams. It just isn't set up like the American stuff. Like I said, I'm only familiar with an L20B, so if there is some other variant of Datsun engine out there that actually runs pushrods, it might be something worth looking into. If you don't have a cat, the additive certainly couldn't hurt in the right quantity. I'd run the DELO in my truck if I didn't have a cat, but I do, and if I took it off, I'd be breaking the law :rolleyes: . I'd run it only to be on the safe side, NOT because I thought it would be the difference between life and death for the valvetrain. BTW- I'm talking about the oil we run all the time, not for breaking in rebuilt engines. GM has a great additive called EOS for that purpose.

[datzenmike]

I don't think the older cats apply, its the newer, much newer ones, different materials used inside. The zinc ruins them. Your '80 cat was eating tons of zinc back 28 years ago and was fine with it. Use all you want.

 

Push rod V8s with hydraulic cams would have some load on the cam all the way around. increasing as it climbs the lobe. Solid lifter cams would load almost all wear on the lobes as there is a valve lash setting.

 

The L series cams have oil holes in the lobes forming a wedge of oil in front of the rocker/lobe interface... can't beat that. What do the V8s use? doesn't it just dribble down from the lifters? Pretty sure they aren't drilled for oil feed.

 

I've pulled a couple of 305 cams before. the lifters were cupped, the cam lobes on two cylinders were completely worn OFF!!!! 305s were notorious for this. GM just started saving money by using cheaper materials. Which would have been fine if people changed their oil at the proper mileage. But people got used to 5-8K mile oil changes or just adding new oil to replace what was burned.

[Buzzbomb]

I don't think the older cats apply, its the newer, much newer ones, different materials used inside. The zinc ruins them. Your '80 cat was eating tons of zinc back 28 years ago and was fine with it. Use all you want.

 

Push rod V8s with hydraulic cams would have some load on the cam all the way around. increasing as it climbs the lobe. Solid lifter cams would load almost all wear on the lobes as there is a valve lash setting.

 

The L series cams have oil holes in the lobes forming a wedge of oil in front of the rocker/lobe interface... can't beat that. What do the V8s use? doesn't it just dribble down from the lifters? Pretty sure they aren't drilled for oil feed.

 

I've pulled a couple of 305 cams before. the lifters were cupped, the cam lobes on two cylinders were completely worn OFF!!!! 305s were notorious for this. GM just started saving money by using cheaper materials. Which would have been fine if people changed their oil at the proper mileage. But people got used to 5-8K mile oil changes or just adding new oil to replace what was burned.

 

I don't think the older cats apply, its the newer, much newer ones, different materials used inside. The zinc ruins them. Your '80 cat was eating tons of zinc back 28 years ago and was fine with it. Use all you want.

 

That's a good point for those of us still running the original cat. Does it work after 28 years? You got me :D- as long as I pass the test, who cares :P ?! IMHO, for those running newer cats in their older trucks due to the smog police, I'd be cautious with the additive and diesel oil.

 

That's pretty :cool: about the L series cams having oil holes in the lobes for lubrication. IF that's the case, I really don't see the zddp deal being much of an issue. The whole thing with the V8's has to do with what you said about the way they oil. Since it's sort of a dribble and drip deal, or in the best case pump up lifters and pushrods with holes, the zddp sort of forms a layer of protection on the metal surfaces to make up for that. This is necessary because it DOESN'T get the oil forced in there like an L valvetrain evidently gets.

 

What you described about lobes worn completely off of a 305 cam is the main problem people seem to be having with..mostly NEWER cams. It seems as if the older stuff that was broke in right is doing ok, but the cam manufacturers have taken GM's lead and have started to cheap out on materials. That's another reason people believe the cam failure rates have become worse. Breaking in a newer hydraulic cam now is touch and go, as people have had them fail right out of the box with proper break in. If you get a newer hydraulic ROLLER cam, though, it's not an issue.

[ppeters914]

IIRC, some of the roadster folks reported early failures on rebuilt R16 motors, which are pushrod, for this very reason. I'd have to dig into the list archives to know for sure.