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Loren O's '72 521 -Found this out in the woods.


Loren O

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It looks like you have fairly big valves now, and it is a closed chamber head(peanut head), measure the intake holes, how big are they?

Are your intake holes 1 1/2 inches across?

It might be that you already have the Z sized valves in your head already, or close to them, so from these photos I would say save your money.

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It looks like you have fairly big valves now, and it is a closed chamber head(peanut head), measure the intake holes, how big are they?

Are your intake holes 1 1/2 inches across?

It might be that you already have the Z sized valves in your head already, or close to them, so from these photos I would say save your money.

That's what I was hopeing to find out. Thank you!
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And yes, do the valve guides and a full valve grind job too.  It's apart, you'll be getting 80% done, just get the whole head rebuilt, and don't think about it again.

That's pretty much what I was thinking,but I wanted to get advice from someone who's done this. I've only done air -cooled VW engines ,& old Buick Nailhead engines. My Goon engine was good to go when I bought it.

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Are the intake valves(the big ones) 1 5/8ths inches across, and are the exhaust valves 1 3/8ths inches across?

Do you have the 1 1/2 inch across intake holes?

I'll have to find out,the engine isn't at my house.
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If I were to guess, as I found the photo of the engine with the head on it on page 4, you have what is, or is real damned close to being a 219 head(SSS head), this head is worth money just sitting there the way it is, it's the head that every one wants for their race engines, it might not quite be there, but it's very close.

If it has the measurements I indicated above, it is a 219 head, as there are a few 219 heads out there marked as A87 heads, and that is a score.

I have been having my heads built from W53 heads with the Z car valves, and a lot of porting, you already have one, or it seems you might have one, I have spent over a $1000.00 making one because I could not buy one for less than $600.00 that needed rebuilt.

Here is some eye candy.

DSCN0585.JPG

 

DSCN0606.JPG

 

DSCN0602.JPG

I put really big valves in this one. :)

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If I were to guess, as I found the photo of the engine with the head on it on page 4, you have what is, or is real damned close to being a 219 head(SSS head), this head is worth money just sitting there the way it is, it's the head that every one wants for their race engines, it might not quite be there, but it's very close.

If it has the measurements I indicated above, it is a 219 head, as there are a few 219 heads out there marked as A87 heads, and that is a score.

 

 

I don't know, his valves look pretty stock to me.  They don't look any bigger than my A87.  I will throw in a pic of my stock W58 too for comparison:

 

Loren's A87:

 

20140107_194429.jpg

 

 

My A87:

 

2012-09-16_14-35-10_830.jpg

 

 

My W58:

 

0062.jpg

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If I were to guess, as I found the photo of the engine with the head on it on page 4, you have what is, or is real damned close to being a 219 head(SSS head), this head is worth money just sitting there the way it is, it's the head that every one wants for their race engines, it might not quite be there, but it's very close.

If it has the measurements I indicated above, it is a 219 head, as there are a few 219 heads out there marked as A87 heads, and that is a score.

I don't know, his valves look pretty stock to me.  They don't look any bigger than my A87 or my W58.

 

Loren's A87:

 

20140107_194429.jpg

 

 

My A87:

 

2012-09-16_14-35-10_830.jpg

 

 

My W58:

 

0062.jpg

 

 

Yes, all them heads look to have big valves, so does the U67 head, but it is an open chamber head, a 219 head has the big valves, it has the 1 1/2 intake ports, and it is a closed chamber head, there are a few A87 heads out there made this way.

I will post a few photos of a 219 head in a couple minutes.

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OK, here we are, my stock 219 head, each of the measurements are what I said, even thought it looks slightly less.

DSCN2097.JPG

Intake ports are 1 1/2 inches.

DSCN2099.JPG

Intake valves are 1 5/8ths.

DSCN2094.JPG

Exhaust valves are 1 3/8ths.

DSCN2095.JPG

Intake/exhaust side

DSCN2100.JPG

Bottom, and it is closed chamber, but it's so dirty, it's hard to see.

DSCN2096.JPG

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Yes, all them heads look to have big valves, so does the U67 head, but it is an open chamber head, a 219 head has the big valves, it has the 1 1/2 intake ports, and it is a closed chamber head, there are a few A87 heads out there made this way.

I will post a few photos of a 219 head in a couple minutes.

 

I'm following now. 

It's the intake port size that makes the difference on the 219 A87 head.  Because the valve sizes are all the same on the A87, 219, W58, U67, aside from the some A87 heads that have a slightly smaller exhaust valve.

 

Word here:  http://www.olddatsuns.com/  says the A87 head with bigger ports should have the 219 casting number on the front of the head.

 

Basically, until Loren can go out and measure the intake port on the head, and look at the front of the head for any 219 casting number, we won't know for sure...

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I'm following now. 

It's the intake port size that makes the difference on the 219 A87 head.  Because the valve sizes are all the same on the A87, 219, W58, U67, aside from the some A87 heads that have a slightly smaller exhaust valve.

 

Word here:  http://www.olddatsuns.com/  says the A87 head with bigger ports should have the 219 casting number on the front of the head.

 

Basically, until Loren can go out and measure the intake port on the head, and look at the front of the head for any 219 casting number, we won't know for sure...

 

Some A87 heads are not marked as a 219 head, even though it is, and some A87 heads also have smaller valves, and some are even open chamber also, it's a crap shoot at the wrecking yard, you have to take it off to find out what it is, until last year, I always thought that all W53 heads were small valved, had closed chambers, and small intake ports, but I found one that was open chambered, had bigger valves, but the intake ports were still small(1 1/4 inches), you really have to look at everything in the wrecking yards, as someone like me could have had work done on it, like that W53 with the big valves, someone did that, I don't believe it came that way.

You can always hog out the smaller intake ports on the closed chamber heads with big valves, then you will basically have a 219 head for a lot less money than you could buy one for.

And take my word on this, big valves make a difference, I had one head rebuilt, I left the small valves in it, but put a cam in it, now I have no torque starting out because of the cam, and I have no power on the freeway because of the small valves, it was a lose/lose on that one, I will never make that mistake again.

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the engine is just waiting for room at Canby NAPA's machine shop. One of the guys there used to have a really nice 521, with a built up L18 ,so I know he'll know what to do with mine. They're kinda backed up at the moment though,so I'm waiting. My friend (& new Boss at MO-lalla NAPA ) took some measurements . The valves are 1 5/8 exhaust ,1 3/8 intake (he might have those reversed? ) & the imtake ports are about 1 1/4. He's been busy with new manager related work stuff,so I haven't been able to go over to his garage & take any new pics. I've been going to post a close up of one of the combustion chambers,because to both my boss & I they look a little like both types of chambers,open & closed. The area around the valves looks like a peanut head,but them shouldn't the head surface be more or less flush,instead of having a roumd shaped area where the head (& gasket ) meet the cylinders? Maybe after the head is cleaned.& resurfaced it will ne more clear.

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You have a peanut head Loren, and the valve measurements you just indicated are the big valves, so the only difference between a 219 head and your A87 head is the fact that your intake ports are smaller, you can have it ported to 1 1/2 inches if you want, but unless you have a dual SU package with the 1 1/2" intake ports, or any L block intake manifold with the big intake ports, I would just save my money, as unless they match, it's a wasted effort, but if have plans on a dual SU package and have the manifold already, then have them port matched.

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I have been having my heads built from W53 heads with the Z car valves, and a lot of porting, you already have one, or it seems you might have one, I have spent over a $1000.00 making one because I could not buy one for less than $600.00 that needed rebuilt.

Here is some eye candy.

I put really big valves in this one. :)

 

Wayno, what Z car valves did you use, and where do you get your lash pads, cam tower shims, and other parts from, for your head rebuild?

 

I'm getting to ready to rebuild my W58.  I don't think it will need the bigger valves, I think a higher lift cam will be plenty, but I'm just curious which one you use for future reference.  And the other parts, I want to be able to save the machine shop time in trying to track those parts down.

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I don't know which Z car valves were used, I do know that they had to order more than one set, as the exhaust and intake valves on one head were not the same length when they should have been, so it had to be redone on the last one I had made, which is the one with 1 3/4 inch intakes(the photo below), I think dirttrack510 even went bigger than that on one head.

I also have no idea how it was set up, I don't know what was used, I just take my stuff to my machinist and he gives me back a done head that is ready to bolt on, it's worth the money to not have to worry about pulling apart again because something was not right, he gets it right the first time.

Wayno, what Z car valves did you use, and where do you get your lash pads, cam tower shims, and other parts from, for your head rebuild?

 

I'm getting to ready to rebuild my W58.  I don't think it will need the bigger valves, I think a higher lift cam will be plenty, but I'm just curious which one you use for future reference.  And the other parts, I want to be able to save the machine shop time in trying to track those parts down.

DSCN0585.JPG

You can see that the seats are touching each other, it's hard to go any bigger.

DSCN0602.JPG

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I also have no idea how it was set up, I don't know what was used, I just take my stuff to my machinist and he gives me back a done head that is ready to bolt on, it's worth the money to not have to worry about pulling apart again because something was not right, he gets it right the first time.

 

I agree.  I take my engine, trans and differential work to my trusted machinist to do.  Too many costly specialized tools for me to have hanging around, and all the work comes with 100% guarantee, for almost an unlimited time period...

 

My problem is; my trusted machinist is 3500 miles away (shipping to and from would be at least and additional $100), so I want to make sure I have sources for everything, so when I find a new local machinist, I know he has what he needs to get the job done.

 

 

So you have about $1000 just in the head wayno?

 

I can see that, especially when considering the amount of port work needed.  But $1000 in what I'm assuming is a race head, is pretty nominal.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Went over & finished taking the block apart,&got it loaded up to go to the machine shop tomorrow. cylinders 1 & 4 had a bit of a ridge at the top, & the pistons for those two cylinders were kinda beat up around the top edges of the piston. Looks like I'm going to need pistons too. Are these considered "dished I pistons?

2014-01-23192944.jpg

I also had the chance to look at the head. No "219" casting on them,but there was a #70.

 

2014-01-23183616.jpg

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I called one of our suppliers about pistons this morning,but I got a feeling they weren't houng to be the same style as the ones that are being replaced (see pic above ). don't they need to be the same? For example,wouldn't a true "flat" top raise the compression & possibly be a.clearance problem,same thing with a.domed piston?

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Yes it will raise the compression ratio.  The stock L20B typically has a 11.36cc dish. Which should be about 8.90:1 compression with the closed chamber head.  With flat top pistons, you get close to 9.91:1 compression.  Which is a bit high for the street, but still doable. But premium fuel for sure.  As far as I know, you can run flat top pistons without any mods to the pistons, as long as you have a stock cam and valves. 

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