MKLOTZ 411 Disc brake conversion project

[mklotz70]

I'm pretty sure the car and HB bolts are the same.  It's the 720 bolts that are different.

 

http://www.bluehandsinc.com/hoses---banjo-bolts.html

 

I thought I had pics of all 3 together, but I probably figured the car ones were the same, so I left them out. 

 

Bottom of this page is the factory numbers if you need to get them from the dealer.

 

http://www.bluehandsinc.com/donor-vehicle-and-part-information.html

[p411]

Got to work on it today

 

Finished the front to rear hardlines

[p411]

Stripped the pass frt whl down to the spindle. Original Bearing spacer is shown here

Heres it is halfway off. I used a sharp chisel at first and then walked it off the rest of the way with pry bars took a while but eventually came off

 

New spacer installed. I used a piece of wood to tap it on slipped right on

Bracket installed

You can see the amount that needs to be shaved off to allow the bolt to come through. Be sure to tak enough off so that the bolt can move freely up/down otherwise the angle of bolt will hold in one direction

A bit blurry Ill try to get a better pic tomorow

Bolt slides in

 

Thats it for today Ill try to do more tomorow

 

 

[mklotz70]

That looks like a bit more than I had to shave on the spindles I was working on.  Did you "clock" the bracket before tightening the bolts?  There's not much slop around the bolts, but you might loosen them and then turn the bracket as much as you can for clearance, then tighten the bolts.  Dang it's been awhile since I worked on any of those kits. 

 

Great pics and thread :)

[p411]

Actually no Mike I didnt. Dang it Why didnt I think of that? Thanks, for the info good to know for when I do the driver side.

[p411]

I repacked the bearings and installed new seals, ordered frt wheel seals from ROCK AUTO they sent me Timken 1977 they are wrong, so I crossed referenced the factory number and came up with 1188s or 1188 is alternative, off to AZ they had in stock $4.99 ea sweet!! Put it all back together this time clocked the bracket sanded and painted them with high temp paint. Added the lock tite. heres some pics

 

[p411]

Well I hope you guys havent forgotten about me, Ive been extremely busy but ive almost got this thing wrapped up pics coming soon next couple of days maybe. Hopefully sooner.

[p411]

Well heres where its at right now may have to lower it a tad. ;)

 

 

[p411]

Ive got it all together, but cant get it to bleed. so I pinched off the rubber lines and still nothing! Iam suspecting Ive got a bad MC from rock auto. Even while bench bleeding the pressure of fluid coming out wasnt all that. So I ordered a new one this time a Raybestos. Lets see what happens !!

[mklotz70]

The systems are fairly simple, so hopefully, it's just the m/c.   I've had trouble bleeding systems before.  I had to get help....open the line, have the pedal pushed, close the line, let the pedal up.  I've also used my finger as a speed bleeder.  I just hold it over the end of the line I want bled......when the pedal is pushed, it squirts past my finger(watch it doesn't squirt in your eyes), but when pressure lets up, my finger seals it well enough to create the suction needed to pull more into the m/c.   Hmmm......which makes me wonder........does the m/c fluid level go down at all when you're bleeding?  If not, you're pulling air in from somewhere or there's a bubble right in the m/c that is keeping fluid from getting pulled in.  I've had some systems kick my ass for hours, but I always won in the end :)

[p411]

Thanks Mike those are great ideas and I will try them next. Heres where Iam at right now. Replaced the MC with a new  JCS all japanese NABCO MC. Followed the bleeding instrcutions this time. They suggest to plug the mc once filled and pump the piston slowly until it wont let anymore. So I got to thinking. I unplugged the hardlines on the MC on the car <The one im replacing. And plugged off the holes while it was mounted on the car and KABAM!! hard pedal here I come. I actually started pushing fluid past the plastic pluggs that i used to plug it with.< So this tells me MC is more than likely good.  So being the person I Am and I cant return the new MC for credit I mounted it and same problem is there zero pedal. Heres whats going on in my head please help.

 

 

1) Ive triple checked all connections nothing is leaking

2) Is 3/16 line too thin?

3) I wonder if the flare on the AZ lines were the right ones?

4) Im going to try Mikes bleeding ideas this weekend.

[dattoboy70]

sweet brake set up. i might have to pick up a set when im ready for the swap

[mklotz70]

The 3/16 line is big enough, so you can scratch that one.  Have you checked to see if you're getting any movement in the calipers or wheel cyls(in back) when the pedal is pressed?  Does it ever get firm when pumping them up?  If it does, you can pull the ebrake so that you eliminate any adjustment issues in the rear circuit. 

 

Hmmm....you might try putting that plastic plug in the m/c on the line closest to the radiator so that it stays pumped up and the movement is all in the circuit closest to the firewall. 

[Charlie69]

I have had this same problem on several vehicles and now I always pressure bleed. no need to bench bleed.

 

This is what I use.

 

http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm

[fourfiveten]

 A little off topic but what is the offset on those sweet VTO's and what size tire's do you have mounted on them. I am wanting to pick up a set for my 411, not sure which offset to go with in the 14" rims. Also, it looks as if they will "tuck in" when it's lowered, is that your impression as well?

[p411]

The 3/16 line is big enough, so you can scratch that one.  Have you checked to see if you're getting any movement in the calipers or wheel cyls(in back) when the pedal is pressed?  Does it ever get firm when pumping them up?  If it does, you can pull the ebrake so that you eliminate any adjustment issues in the rear circuit. 

 

Hmmm....you might try putting that plastic plug in the m/c on the line closest to the radiator so that it stays pumped up and the movement is all in the circuit closest to the firewall. 

 

Thanks Mike Im thinking about doing just that.  Start there and if that doesnt work start plugging line by line.

 

I have had this same problem on several vehicles and now I always pressure bleed. no need to bench bleed.

 

This is what I use.

 

http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm

 

Thanks Charlie thats awesome!!

 

 A little off topic but what is the offset on those sweet VTO's and what size tire's do you have mounted on them. I am wanting to pick up a set for my 411, not sure which offset to go with in the 14" rims. Also, it looks as if they will "tuck in" when it's lowered, is that your impression as well?

 

No problem on the off topic. they are 15x6  +24 and they fit PERFECT!! and yes they do like they will tuck in when lowered.

[p411]

Okay guys need your help after hours of bleeding and nothing. Its actually weird the lines have no air bubbles coming out and I still have little to pedal. So I plugged up the rear line at  the MC and bleed the front on their own still nothing. then I plugged off the drv sd caliper at the tee bled till solid fluid came out then did the same to the drv sd with the pass pugged off at the tee. still no pedal. Mc is good because I plugged off both lines and the pedal is then rock hard.

 

So heres where iam at please input your ideas.

 

Im thinking my hardline routing is a bit crazy.

Right now the hardline comes out of the MC straight down about 3 inches curves back up over the MC and over to the tee

. then from the tee up and over the over flow bottle mounted on the firewall then back down to the pass caliper

then from the tee again up and over the MC then back down to the drv sd caliper.

 

Maybe just maybe theres too many UP AND OVERS?? will that affect anything?

 

Im thinking I should reroute all lines so that they are on a downward path as much as possible? and try to eliminate all up and overs?

 

Im all out of ideas so that's all I got. your help greatly appreciated. If that's too much to picture Ill snap a few shots and post the current set up if needed. Thanks again

[bananahamuck]

Open up  the bleeders one at a time and hook a hose (free flowing ) into a bottle to catch fluid,,, and have a little helper just constantly fill master, whilst you pump , it`s very wasteful but sometimes it gets the flow going rapidly enough to flush funky bubbles out..

 

 

No promises though.

[themadpants]

p411, on 12 Apr 2013 - 16:22, said:

Okay guys need your help after hours of bleeding and nothing. Its actually weird the lines have no air bubbles coming out and I still have little to pedal. So I plugged up the rear line at the MC and bleed the front on their own still nothing. then I plugged off the drv sd caliper at the tee bled till solid fluid came out then did the same to the drv sd with the pass pugged off at the tee. still no pedal. Mc is good because I plugged off both lines and the pedal is then rock hard.

 

So heres where iam at please input your ideas.

 

Im thinking my hardline routing is a bit crazy.

Right now the hardline comes out of the MC straight down about 3 inches curves back up over the MC and over to the tee

. then from the tee up and over the over flow bottle mounted on the firewall then back down to the pass caliper

then from the tee again up and over the MC then back down to the drv sd caliper.

 

Maybe just maybe theres too many UP AND OVERS?? will that affect anything?

 

Im thinking I should reroute all lines so that they are on a downward path as much as possible? and try to eliminate all up and overs?

 

Im all out of ideas so that's all I got. your help greatly appreciated. If that's too much to picture Ill snap a few shots and post the current set up if needed. Thanks again

If you have a line looping above the MC, that is likely your problem. Air will not be able to be bled from hardline above the MC without major hassle.

 

(Remember to bench bleed your master!)

 

(Example of trapped air on a loop. This also applies to routing above MC reservoirs)

[p411]

Thanks madpants  last couple of days ive been rerouting all hardlines to run downhill with no up and overs. Bench bled and  Put it all back together and still nothing. I ordered a single res MC just got it in today lets see what happens thanks for your help.

[MikeRL411]

See my entry under "Brakes" for new 411 master cylinder!  It is on my RL411 so should be a "no problemo" on your WPL411.

[p411]

Okay either Iam no longer qualified  to touch brakes or I just received another bad MC from Rock auto.

Soo far Ive gone through 3 dual MC"s and 1 single MC

 

Heres what I do B4 installation. Mount to bench, hook up my hardline loops from output to inside the res. under fluid. stroke the piston slowly until all bubbles are gone. Ive also tried plugging the outputs and stoking piston slowly until I can no longer push it in.

 

Then mount it on the car with the loops or plugs still installed. hook up hardline to the front output "the one closest to the firewall"  and also plug the rear output "the one closest to the radiator sd" with a plug so that I can only focus on the front and by the way  ive replaced the hardlines now so that they all travel downhill into a tee and then downhill again into calipers.

 

Then have a friend pump 3-5 times and hold pedal down. I open bleed valve at pass sd caliper draining it into a clear tube container and close . repeat repeat repeat and then on drv sd over and over again. then back to the pass sd until all air is out of the lines. Then I get it to the point of all fluid coming out no air at all. Pedal still feels super soft not even a spongey feel.   Ive also tried mityvac, and  gravity bleed,

 

Ive made sure the pedal rod is adjusted to where theres a tiny gap before engagement with the piston. and theres no leaks anywhere. this is how I feel >>>>  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:  !!!!!!! 

[bananahamuck]

Seems like a rhetorical question but,,,,, have you bled the back brakes??

 

Again try the  just pump fluid without closing bleeder into CLEAR container of fluid at the farthest points and work your way back...Sometimes the fluid just needs to roll out to the extremities washing the air out with it,,,  then worry about,,, doing it the " right " way.

 

or not

[p411]

Seems like a rhetorical question but,,,,, have you bled the back brakes??

 

Again try the  just pump fluid without closing bleeder into CLEAR container of fluid at the farthest points and work your way back...Sometimes the fluid just needs to roll out to the extremities washing the air out with it,,,  then worry about,,, doing it the " right " way.

 

or not

 

 

 Thanks Banana I"ll try that next.

[graveltrapp]

Last time I bled after removing and replacing front pads and rotors, I had to adjust my rear brakes signifigently via the manual adjusters to get any pedal back. If the car is on jack stands see if the rear pads are at all hitting the drums.