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Looking for input on alignment for an AutoX setup?? 510

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Heh. ODD's posts are pretty much spot on. Nothing to add here lol, except maybe my setup. There are lots of ways you can setup a car, especially if you're able to build it around your driving style. I have a fairly aggressive driving style due to years of sim racing and indoor karting lol. My goals are to track this car monthly... it's not ready for the track yet, so autocross is something I do here and there.

 

 

 

 

 

I do have a KA swapped 4 door. 2100 lbs. stock KA 5 speed, and a Subaru 3.70 LSD. Gutted interior with a full dash, two seats and a rollbar. I run an Optima red top and to keep weight out of the trunk (causes a pendulum effect) we mounted it behind the passenger seat.

 

The engine is freshly rebuilt by my dad and I... 550 miles so far on the rebuild. The block was bored .020", other than that, it's a stock rebuild. Has an intake, a 4-2-1 OBX longtube header modified to clear the floorpan and steering box, 2.5" piping all the way to a 3" Magnaflow muffler. 11 lb flywheel and a piece of shit clutch. If I had to guess on power I'd say 160-175 hp with matching torque.... I plan on dynoing this beast within a month or two.

 

 

Front control arm mounts have been raised 1". 280zx struts and brakes, stock rear drums. Also running Byron's rear camber/toe brackets. Poly crossmember bushings, rubber control arm bushings front and rear, and the differential is solid mounted.

 

 

 

 

DPR steering box brace, Front coilovers and camber plates, 275 lb springs up front with KYB AGX MR2 inserts. Rear springs are an 18" 550lb spring cut in half, giving me two 9" 1100 lb springs which were shortened a hair more for ride height reasons ;) The rear wheel rate is about 300 lbs. Rear shocks are just cheap KYB GR2s for a Camaro. I run 15x7 Panasports, with a 205-50-15 size tire.

 

My alignment is 3 degrees of caster..... (limited by my big ass tires hitting the fenders... lol. Ideally I want 5 degrees... and I'll get it. We plan on modifying the strut towers and moving them back some)

-2.5 degrees of camber up front, -1.5 degrees in the back. Just a hair toe in front and rear. I run stiff rear springs and no rear bar, no lift off oversteer for me.

 

 

 

 

I have a pretty aggressive setup and I'd go even more extreme in some instances, but this is still my daily driver... :P Right now the only limiting factor are the crappy tires I'm running. Currently saving up for a good set of street tires... I can't afford another set of wheels and slicks.

 

 

No ego issues here lol, I have been wanting to compare my 510 to others just to figure out what I need to improve on the car.

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Sounds like a great plan come springtime! Cars gettin taken off the road for the winter, gettin a rollbar, and... somethin special for the engine...

 

Will this be before October 28th? lol. If not, come out to this event :D I'm going for sure unless something major comes up.

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UBERDEAF - Damn, YOU have a buncha parts I still need too... The DPR brace at least is sorely lacking on my ride. A buddy just did it and wow - so much crisp from something so little and easy to do.

 

I loved going from KYB to tokico. I have simple non adjustable blues,,,,, 240z front inserts and stock 510 rears. if you go lower than me I think MR2 front inserts are supposed to be correct for lower height than i am at.

 

i still have rubber in my rear end (ok that sounds so wrong)... I have flipped my x-member caps over, which eliminated the vertical slop, but still rubber in between. Mustache bar too.

 

Nobody likes running 14s anymore, but that would be a simple way to manage more caster. 15x7 is pretty damn big. Lotsa people shoehorn BIGGER tires than that under their 510, but i dont see a lot of benefit from a performance standpoint. i stay away from discussions about "stance" cuz they bug me. (JDM shoehorned ultracambered streetcars with no susp travel.....woohoo.)

 

I am assuming you have either milled the shoulders on your T/C rods down and adjust with washers like i do , or have aftermarket adjustables??? if you read my whole little novel. at one point i went skinny on my sidewalls and was well over 4 deg caster.

 

Funny you mentioned no rear bar, I now of 2 autox cars that do well without one, Once you can camber/caster correct the crossmember - the options open up much more on workable rear end setups. Sounds like uyou are PLENTY stiff back there, 900+ lb springrates are the minimum . i dunno what the heck SusTech is still selling their softies for. Mine came on cut Sustech springs - lowered to the stops (almost) and I HATED IT Undetsteered until I let go of the gas, then all it wanted to do was lose control.

 

What I am curious about is your FRONT bar. I re-read what you wrote and didnt see mention of one. Im thinking it probably takes some more aggressive settings all around the car to get away without both bars. In my imagination i see there being more bodyroll regardless, which CAN help you get the weight on the outside tires, and if they lean over just right on their camber...i dont see why it cant work pretty well.

 

What I just said flies in the face of what i have seen in reality....a buncha powerful 510s squealing tires like mad and rolling over into squalid understeer. Most of them appear to me as being too soft - when combined with lack of a front bar on a front heavy car.....hard to avoid the push. Your setup Doesnt scream this ( at least on paper) you sprung more stiffly than my car all the way around and your rear is stiffer than mine. so I see all good things there. nice to see that you went with heavier springs in front to go with the heavier motor, and didnt trunk your battery. Mine is still under the hood, but it will go to exactly where yours is eventually - for the same reason! :thumbup:

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Dammit man! Im 2.5hrs east of the UFO runs, all this posting has me wanting to get back into autoxing!!! I have an L19 (not a typo)w/DGV, ZX trans, roadster clutch, had a 4.11 LSD in there, but needs rebuild, 175# front springs and 240# ish rear wheel rate, front 7/8 bar, rear 3/4 bar. Tires are Falken 329 M+S tires hahahahahah, they work ok though.

 

68' Something i just learned is that the higher your diff ratio is, technically the more difficult it becomes to break traction in the rear tires. Anybody reading this - feel free to correct me if i am wrong, this part I dont understand completely,....

 

How can I make words of my thoughts and still make sense...... Ok....um....here goes. .. The power of the motor at any RPM affects less leverage at the tire because of the higher ratio or driveshaft revolutions to wheel revolutions. this affects the "moment of inertia" at the tires... something i am still digesting physics wise.

 

What this means on the surface with no weird math involved ..... you feel like you get more grip out of simpler tires because your input at the pedal has less affect on the rear wheels than if you were running a lower ratio rear.

 

I had a fundamental misunderstanding of how torque is affected at the rear wheel by changes in Dif ratios. i/ still dont believe the right answer totally cuz Im stubborn.

 

My buddy Derek runs a MONSTER 240z. sr20 with h2o methanol, disco potato turbo, nismo injectors, on and on and on...300 WHP fo sho. he runs an r200 with a 3.70. he blows first anytime he lays on it, can burn 2nd in a ovverrevved shift, and can chirp 3rd. With the 3.90 it had to begin with , it was not able to do that.

 

forever I had thought just the opposite of this..that high ratio rear ends made for more wheelspin out of lower horsepower. but essentially you make more leverage with a lower ratio. This is something alien to my brains way of thinking

 

It took Derek (a former navy Submarine operator and current airframe mechanic student) ..... 30 minutes of explanation for me to start understanding what i just tried to say to you.

 

If someone can simplify this into 2 sentences of solid logic - it would get rid of my headache every time I think about it.

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Some pics for fun.... first is me dicking with front suspension....

 

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Driving My buddy Wills fantastically fast roadster (its now painted and gorgeous)

 

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Me in Action... note how high my car rides for an Autox racer...

 

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These pics are from 2008 I think.... still had soft rear springs and KYB shocks. Even with setup alignment... this was the result...

 

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Note the front tire smoke.... not proud of this pic, but it is proof that I have improved as a driver, as has the car

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This is a great shot of front tires under load, you can pretty much see that the car needs more camber. ... imagine marking outside sidewall with shoepolish.... see how it is rolling over and fat compared to inside tire? Shoepolish tells that tale...

 

47891_10151253581596383_480718204_n.jpg

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slight toe out in front!!!!!!!!if a auto cross.

What I was told.

 

A little toe out never hurt anyone :) . nice for a bit of additional steering response and turn in.... makes my car track every un-even surface it comes across though, which keeps my hands on the wheel at all times, not exactly a bad thing.

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Yup... these were taken in 2008 for sure ....my first full season of AutoX. finishede 4th inclass. Got smoked by a 240z with enormous gumball A6 tires. a trailered 510, and the roadster i pictured above. ..

 

Steve Harris did the photo work for me on an event and sold me about 100 pics for $20 Below is just a shot I like with his date stamp as proof that I am not still this poorly setup. :blush:

 

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Car had a rake to it because wooden spacers had to be cut and inserted into the rear spring perches just to get the car off the stops.in hard cornering on country roads. Front end had been re-done with Z strust by that time if I remember right... and was lowered to a reasonable height.

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Will should remember me from shasta, my 510 at the time and his roadster were twins in the paint dept! I almost tagged Steves BMW when he stopped short on the silly millie in 06 ;P Almost,but didnt!

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Wups, yeah I forgot to mention a few things lol. I run a 1" solid front bar. And yes I have adjustable TC rods.

 

I would love to run 14s, but this car is a daily driver, I get 30+ mpg with the 15s lol.

 

Yeah I was amazed at how much of a difference the steering box made.... if you don't have one, you need to get one ASAP.

 

Yes my rear springs are very stiff lol but they do make up for the lack of a rear bar. These 1100 lb springs are actually too stiff even for me... at higher speeds my car can be a handful. I have no problem getting it to rotate when I need it to (sometimes even with opposite lock!) ... which is perfect for autocross :D I plan on getting a set of softer springs before I track it...

 

 

 

 

Your differential theory... I never thought about that lol. It does make sense though!

 

 

My car does look kinda low but I think it's really just the bigger wheels filling in the fenders more. It handles great at this ride height, I don't think I've gone so low it's affecting handling. My front control arms are parallel to the ground. Keep in mind my front control arm mounts are 1" higher than stock.

 

 

 

 

1-5.jpg

 

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I don't really have any good engine bay pictures... I'll have to get some later.

 

 

 

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550 miles on the freshly rebuilt KA :D

 

Here's some vids from the last time I was at Marina. Keep in mind this is before the engine rebuild, when the engine had all kinds of things wrong with it. It sounds a million times better now and doesn't burn oil :D OH YEAH I forgot, I also had blown ass shocks up front at the time lol.

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S6w58SxGdU[/media]

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyWc8SIoqcg[/media]

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Never made it to shasta... :bye: ... bought my 510 in late 06.

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UberDeaf - Uh oh... now it looks like I have to go to this months event...(thatll teach me to open my big mouth)... even still - you ARE missing a bar...just a rear bar...instead of a front one :P. part of the reason Im not @ 1100lbs in the rear is YES they are great for autox , just not so much on the street, as you have found. I like a little understeer, which is infuriating sometimes on tight courses, but provides me great confidence on windy roads.

 

When I first got into this, someone in the datsun world much wiser than I BEAT into my head that if I insisted on daily driving my car, there are some trix I just shouldnt do. Furthermore - he forced me to acknowledge that my car would never truly be competitive until I gave up trying to compromise. You cant have your cake and eat it too... So now, I get my ass handed to me by prepped cars and try to hold off all the street-shod dailies. In that perspective my setup has been a stunning success. Won class in 2010 by being CONSISTENT. I think I hit 2 cones all year... never missed an event. Snapped the crankshaft of my L20b (long story) while street driving it, and salvaged my season with a BONE stock L16...pulled out of a KA converted wagon while still running perfectly and under 200k. (shame shame shame)

 

A thought - your 3.70 rear has more affect on MPG than the tires....your MPG will not be affected so long as you run tall enuf sidewalls in the REAR (14 with a 60 is what you see in my shots) . With the adjust-ability you have up front, you COULD run a much smaller front tire and raise the perches a little to compensate for the difference in tire height OR have a rake and its resulting image / handling. A 195 rear tire will fit under rolled fenders even if overlow. (205s kinda fit too), and Im sure yours are probly rolled...

 

I just mismatched sidewalls once I got tired of revving at 70mph and dealt with the rake while daily driving, then swapped to matching 45s for events.

 

There are advantages to a shorter front tire in relation to handling and nimbleness.(back to the moment of inertia madness) There were aspects of it that i really enjoyed, but the Toyos i was using were not the best tire I have ever had.

 

Part of my 510 weirdness is not cutting it up more than I have to... I mention all this as an alternative to relocating your upper mounts.

 

raising the control arm mounts is so beneficial.. Im not to that point yet either. Not really low enough to need it. Dunno if you knew, but one small but KILLER difference in the 1969 front xmembers is that they have higher front mounts for the arms. Good luck finding one though, unless you find a whole 69 that hasnt been muffed up. A friend of mine went to great pains to do the same thing you have and make it inconspicuous....

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Pic notes...

 

BRE - we were meant to connect... your car makes mine look "not" orange... lol... Love the 72...its my year, and I like the "font" EP cars are FAST... I wish my friend Larry was able to give you some advice his car runs EP. The UFO club now has VP which is identical but limited to 25+ yo cars.

 

68 - LOOOOVE that color...I have been debating olive as a choice for the 710 wagon I am "restoring"

 

Uber - That is a great streetable stance for hard drivin'! Too low and its all wrong except the "look". Note that you are in un-even gravel and not high centered ...lol Got another 4 point sitting around for me??? The vids are great, my only one is in the rain and not too exciting. Looks like you correct for oversteer pretty quickly... driving with understeer isnt as fun, but it forces me to be disciplined about my lines.

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UberDeaf - Uh oh... now it looks like I have to go to this months event...(thatll teach me to open my big mouth)... even still - you ARE missing a bar...just a rear bar...instead of a front one :P. part of the reason Im not @ 1100lbs in the rear is YES they are great for autox , just not so much on the street, as you have found. I like a little understeer, which is infuriating sometimes on tight courses, but provides me great confidence on windy roads.

 

When I first got into this, someone in the datsun world much wiser than I BEAT into my head that if I insisted on daily driving my car, there are some trix I just shouldnt do. Furthermore - he forced me to acknowledge that my car would never truly be competitive until I gave up trying to compromise. You cant have your cake and eat it too... So now, I get my ass handed to me by prepped cars and try to hold off all the street-shod dailies. In that perspective my setup has been a stunning success. Won class in 2010 by being CONSISTENT. I think I hit 2 cones all year... never missed an event. Snapped the crankshaft of my L20b (long story) while street driving it, and salvaged my season with a BONE stock L16...pulled out of a KA converted wagon while still running perfectly and under 200k. (shame shame shame)

 

A thought - your 3.70 rear has more affect on MPG than the tires....your MPG will not be affected so long as you run tall enuf sidewalls in the REAR (14 with a 60 is what you see in my shots) . With the adjust-ability you have up front, you COULD run a much smaller front tire and raise the perches a little to compensate for the difference in tire height OR have a rake and its resulting image / handling. A 195 rear tire will fit under rolled fenders even if overlow. (205s kinda fit too), and Im sure yours are probly rolled...

 

I just mismatched sidewalls once I got tired of revving at 70mph and dealt with the rake while daily driving, then swapped to matching 45s for events.

 

There are advantages to a shorter front tire in relation to handling and nimbleness.(back to the moment of inertia madness) There were aspects of it that i really enjoyed, but the Toyos i was using were not the best tire I have ever had.

 

Part of my 510 weirdness is not cutting it up more than I have to... I mention all this as an alternative to relocating your upper mounts.

 

raising the control arm mounts is so beneficial.. Im not to that point yet either. Not really low enough to need it. Dunno if you knew, but one small but KILLER difference in the 1969 front xmembers is that they have higher front mounts for the arms. Good luck finding one though, unless you find a whole 69 that hasnt been muffed up. A friend of mine went to great pains to do the same thing you have and make it inconspicuous....

 

There are no competitive thoughts from me so don't feel like you "have" to go :P I'm going for a chance to finally let loose with my car. I go nuts having to drive normally on the streets. :(

 

 

 

Compromising on things for a daily driven 510.... I know nothing about that :P Despite the stiff suspension setup my car actually rides very nice on the street. My dad has a bad back and loves driving it lol. I do plan on getting sound deadener and carpet though.

 

 

 

Consistency is the only way to win championships ;) Very impressive!

 

 

 

Yeah I don't want to deal with switching wheels around, and having the car look funky on the streets. It is daily driven after all... it has to look good! lol Just gonna stick with the 15s. 205-50-15 is a very popular tire size, I can get the best street tires out there.

 

 

 

I understand your thoughts about cutting the strut towers. I'm still not completely decided yet myself. I honestly never ever ever ever ever EVER plan on getting rid of the car, so...

 

 

 

I didn't know that about the '69 crossmembers... that's awesome lol. If I ever come across one I'll definitely snag it...

 

 

 

What class would I be in with UFO??

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Uber - That is a great streetable stance for hard drivin'! Too low and its all wrong except the "look". Note that you are in un-even gravel and not high centered ...lol Got another 4 point sitting around for me??? The vids are great, my only one is in the rain and not too exciting. Looks like you correct for oversteer pretty quickly... driving with understeer isnt as fun, but it forces me to be disciplined about my lines.

 

I do have another 4 point, but it's not installed. I have a normal seat on the passenger side with just a lap belt. :( I am planning on getting another Corbeau seat eventually.

 

4 door power!

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That paint is original if you can believe it!!! Boaty on here buffed it out years ago from 40 years of oxidation.

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That paint is original if you can believe it!!! Boaty on here buffed it out years ago from 40 years of oxidation.

 

Damn Im Super jealous now (ina good way).... my car has its original orange paint (or whats left of it), but as a whole its not in nearly that good lookin.

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Have someone who KNOWS what they are doing hit it with a buff!!! It comes back!

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Uber - You DO have me on tire availability. My car came with 15s and I sold em off when I got my 6 spokes. Street tires can be annoying sometimes...I was going through a set of Falken RT 615s about every 11-13 mos. Toyos lasted 9-10 but I drove them past that. Now I have a set of $330 semi-blah Kuhmos that squeal like mad but are "real" tires i dont have to sweat in the rain, and they will last forever since I am now trying like mad to keep myself supplied with take offs and freebies. The V700s are almost shot...well...they are already shot but I can still drive em faster than street tires, so they work in my book. I got HOOKED up with a set of Cooper Lites that are from the IMSA ultralite racing series. A few friends went to Seca and came home with a whole truckbed full, but they are 13x7 and I will need rims first. Going to KILL the V7s by end of year, so I am about to be cornered into buying or borrowing rims.

 

You would be in OSP not VSP because of your driveline (its not over 25yrs old). OSP tends to be Dominated by AWD cars....UFO runs their classes by a semi-dated version of SCCA classifications. They only real difference is they have made "V" distinctions for cars over 25yrs old.

 

VS vintage stock (has to be orig components throughout)

VSP vintage street prepared (25yo street legal and register-able cars on DOT R or lesser tires)

VP Vintage Prepared / Vintage Production (all setups allowed, plexi, tube frame, etc.... all tires open)

 

This came about, i am told, because of SCCA's rules classifying modestly prepped 510s into OSP / EP which was causing people to grumble. Just putting a 5spd in a stock 510 is enough to get bumped to a higher class in SCCA and it makes for VERY uncompetitive classing sometimes. My car is technically an OSP car in SCCA, I think, and It would take a miracle for me to be anywhere near competitive there. SPEC-BRE has an EP/VP car for certain (hence the lettering on the car) But it could probably get away with running VSP based on its tires.

 

"There are no competitive thoughts from me so don't feel like you "have" to go :P I'm going for a chance to finally let loose with my car. I go nuts having to drive normally on the streets. :( "

 

- Im Just talking a lil smack for fun, dont take me too seriously . Im an L motor guy so you have to understand - I'm a little weird. I didnt mean to come off like " IM GOING TO GET YOU SUCKER" or anything... hope I didnt.

 

Like i said earlier - my favorite part of the day is getting Pizza @ mountain mikes with the datsun guys afterwards, so if yo u go - please come to that too! 2 of our regulars are now married and doin the kid thing...and a 3rd moved to LA for school.... so we need some new comrades!

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Have someone who KNOWS what they are doing hit it with a buff!!! It comes back!

 

Blew my mind what a day of old school 2stage buffing and polishing compound did for mine!

 

Sadly the front got so chipped up from driving it, I painted it black, and my drivers door has the 13 on it over a big black patch to hide a major bit of door damage done by a fucking mechanic working on a car next to mine ( I DONT want to talk about it). :mad:

 

... I buffed and buffed, but the body damage wouldnt go away.....lol sob lol

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Yep, I run in OSP with the SCCA... my competition? A Shelby Cobra (not sure if real or a kit car) on fat slicks. I think with a set of good slicks and the suspension dialed in, I might be able to give him a run.

 

I'm down for some pizza!

 

How much does UFO charge? I've never done a UFO event before.

 

I'd rather have a big dent in my door than rust issues lol. I have 2 spots that need patch panels before this winter.

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All this auto-x talk has me jonesing to get out there with you guys. Where can I find some info on this and future events in the bay area? I kind of built my car with auto-x in mind but have never been out to one yet.

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