Rice Wagon - VG33 510 wagon project

[carterb]

I'd love to say I made some progress today but I'm not sure...

 

I did install the rear brake line between the chassis and the axle.  I used what I believe is a front brake line for a 510 or 280zx or?

 

 

 

 

Might be a touch too tight though when axle movement is taken into account...  More on that later.

[carterb]

Next - a step backwards.  We needed a part for Corey's car that isn't made anymore - an Experimental Engineering upper spring perch that adapts 2.5" coil-over springs to the stock 510 top hat / strut bearing. 

 

Then I remembered a box of brand new Cusco camber plates in the back of the wagon.

 

 

Great!  I'll install those on the wagon and use the other parts on Corey's car.  But when I unboxed them I was reminded that they don't come with a spring perch!

 

 

I looked back at some old pictures for Trouble when I installed these on that car and found I used some QA1 upper spring perches or T3 perches with the needle bearings - so I ordered some parts and will do some more playing around later. 

 

For now, at least these are off the wagon (ha ha) and I can disassemble them and move the parts to Corey's struts.  Just as well, I needed to clean up the hubs and brake rotors anyway.

 

 

 

[carterb]

Next step was to sort out the alternator mounting...

 

The alternators I have I think are Z31 VG30 units.  I bolted one to the bottom of the VG33 alternator mount but I have nothing that allows for linking/adjusting the upper mount.

 

 

 

A little research shows that the VG33 alternator is different and hard mounts to the VG33 bracket and then an idler arm is used for tension.  Is that right?  This is a '97 VG33 out of a pathfinder I believe.

 

Looking at some pics from Dave's VG30 installation guide, it looks like the Z31 alternator is hung from the top and adjusted at the bottom.

 

 

 

 

Looks like the other hardware I had pulled out already.  Great!

 

 

Z31 VG30 (?) mount on left, removed Pathfinder VG33 mount on right.

 

 

Overlaid on their bolt pattern

 

 

Looks like trouble - the alternator will be pulled back using this mount.

 

I need it to line up with the middle crank pulley and water pump.

 

 

But you can see this will line it up with the inner V pulley.  No good.

 

 

I suppose the upper bracket could be modified or re-made but I seriously doubt I'm breaking new ground here. 

 

 

 

Have any of you found the magic combination?

 

Maybe the best thing to do is get a Pathfinder alternator and add the missing idler arm tensioner?

 

Or is there another top hung mount and tensioner that will put my VG30 style alternator where it needs to be?

 

 

 

 

[Lockleaf]

A couple "simple" options come to mind.

 

1) swap a v pulley on to the pathfinder alternator and run the vg30 bracket.  Hope the belt doesn't squeak.

 

2) Go to ACE hardware and buy a couple of small heim joints and a nice turnbuckle, build one of these.  Then use the VG33 bracket and the turnbuckle.

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Lockleaf

[carterb]

10 hours ago, Lockleaf said:

A couple "simple" options come to mind.

 

1) swap a v pulley on to the pathfinder alternator and run the vg30 bracket.  Hope the belt doesn't squeak.

 

2) Go to ACE hardware and buy a couple of small heim joints and a nice turnbuckle, build one of these.  Then use the VG33 bracket and the turnbuckle.

 

 

 

Thanks for the input.

 

1) won't work as it wouldn't pick up the water pump.

2) is possible. 

 

I don't mind picking up an alternator designed for the bracket and adding the stock tensioner.  The only thing I'm unsure of with that plan is that the alternator is kind of high up, and might interfere with my invisible radiator hose.

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by carterb

[rosso]

Most of the parts that I have bought are for a 98-99 Pathfinder and seem to fit my engine - even though no one knows what car this motor came from. (The guys in Lynnwood have no idea).

 

Here's the alternator I have:

 

 

Bolts solid at the top and bottom (long bolt through both lower alternator holes) and does not pivot for belt tightness. I have a belt tensioner idler.

 

 

Everything lines up.

 

 

 

 

 

[rosso]

And it fits well out of the way of my radiator hose mashup.

 

Yes, it's a stock 510 lower rad hose and a stock VG33 hose too. With a special muffler pipe adapter. 🙂

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by rosso

[carterb]

Perfect, thanks Rosso!

You have the solid mount alternator with the adjustable idler.  I think that's what I should do.

I don't have the idler and bracket so I'll need to get one from a yard.

 

[carterb]

All the while in the background I have been progressing a rear shock issue.

As mentioned earlier in this thread - the shocks I was originally running - that got from Kelvin - were too short.  I was uncomfortable with how little shock travel they had.

The shocks mounted to the wagon were TC2501P

 

 

You can see here that there is not much travel - keep in mind with the shock leaned over, there is more rod travel than vertical suspension travel, so it gets used up pretty fast.

 

 

At some point in time I purchased replacement shocks.  TS510

 

 

Perfect part number eh?!

 

 

And since I decided not to run the rear sway bar - it was time to swap them over and get this project moving along.

 

But after some comparative measurements - and putting the shock bodies next to each-other, I realized that the new shock bodies are the *same* as the old.

 

 

Well crap!  That's not going to work.

 

So in haste and without much thought - I ordered a set of shorter shocks, the TS505

 

 

 

Much more travel now!

 

 

Unfortunately it was a dork move and I neglected to account for the extension stroke.  To fit these shocks, I would actually have to compress the suspension, so obviously there would be no droop at all.  *sigh*  I kicked myself for not fully thinking through the problem.

 

Next step was to measure everything - all the shocks I now had, as well as reference measurements on the car itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then I looked at all the shock options in this series on Summit Racing.

 

The compressed and extended lengths published didn't make sense though.  So I contacted QA1 directly and found that they gave different dimensions than Summit Racing for almost every single shock they had.

 

Anyway, all of this information was put into a spreadsheet where I could compare the shock travels and convert them to actual vertical movement at the wheel.

 

 

This all pointed to the perfect shock - The TS504!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carterb]

The TS504 arrived a few days later and I was so excited to open the box, mount the shocks, and put this chapter behind me!

 

TA DA!!!

 

 

Wait, What?!

 

 

You are kidding, right?!

 

The TS504 has a upper eyelet mount!

 

In all my focus on extended and collapsed lengths - I neglected to notice that this shock - unlike almost every other one in the series - has different mounting.  *sigh*  I give up...

 

Fortunately, I noticed something very helpful to get me through this depressing discovery.  The original TC2510P had a stud mount kit threaded onto the shock rod.  That is what made the TS2510P different to the TS510.  That stud mount kit adds about 1 3/8" to the compressed length of the shock (or removes 1 3/8" of stroke from my perspective).  I could move those kits over to the TS504 but if I did, they would be worse than the TS510. 

 

So what does all this mean?  It means that I did a whole lotta work for nothing and the TS510 is the best shock for the job.  The very same shock that has been sitting in the back of the wagon for years ready to be mounted.  Did I already learn all of this once before?  What else did I already learn but forgot?

 

Anyway, armed with that knowledge - I unboxed the TS510 shocks and proceeded to mount them on the car only to find out that the lower bushing is a different size.

 

 

*Take a breath*  *Easy now* Everything is going to be all right.

 

I remembered that the rear coilover kits I make for sedans come with extra bushings.

 

 

 

And sure enough, one pair is a perfect match.

 

 

A shorter shock would be nice but QA1 doesn't have one and after looking at it, the reality is that on a lowered wagon, there just isn't much travel available anyway.  So job done then?

 

 

 

[carterb]

I mentioned lowering...  These fiberglass leaf springs were supposed to do that job for me but it just doesn't seem like it ended up that way. 

 

Just for comparison-sake, I measured the fender lip to axle centerline on Slowpoke

 

 

 

Somewhere between 9 3/4 and 10" maybe?

 

On the wagon, that measurement is 12 1/2"

 

 

 

So I need to come down 2" at least!

 

Fortuitously, I had won a set of CNC aluminum "bump steer spacers" on ebay last month for super cheap - and they came with a 2" lowering block kit.  Sweet!

 

 

Since I had the paint out, I cleaned up the U-bolts and a set of trimmed bump stop and painted them up nice.

 

 

PS.  If you ever use POR15 - do not put the lid back on the can unless you clean every last spec of paint from the mating surfaces.  You will NOT be able to get the lid back off.  Ever. 

 

To ensure that you will be able to access this liquid gold again, use a layer of plastic between the lid and the can.  You will be glad you did.

 

 

My super cheap lowering block kit became slightly less so when I realized it did not come with hardware so after establishing the thread size (1/2-20) I made a trip to the store to buy nuts and also found that the threads were pretty knackered so I ran a die over them.

 

 

Next step - remind myself why you can't use generic lowering block kits on a 510 wagon.

 

The pin and receiver on the 510 are too big for normal lowering blocks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The pin on the block would be a hot dog in a hall way in the bottom of the axle.

 

 

And boring out the base of the block for the 510 pin would leave no material left.

 

 

I know people do this, but it just doesn't seem right...  I drew up these blocks years ago and have made and installed them on 3 or 4 wagons now.  Looks like I better get another set.

 

 

I'm so tempted to just print a set - either in solid plastic or as above with steel dowels in the holes.  Need to check on the compressive strength of SLS Nylon.

 

Anyone else have a trick up their sleeve?

 

[carterb]

P.S.  Is red oxide primer not a thing anymore?

 

This is the closest I could find and it looks brown by the cap.

 

 

I need to hit the fender lips where the paint cracked when I rolled them.  Don't worry, half the car is red-oxide primer.  It will fit right in.

[thisismatt]

keep in mind with the shock leaned over, there is more rod travel than vertical suspension travel, so it gets used up pretty fast.

 

Isn't that the other way around? A leaned over shock will travel less than the wheel.

[carterb]

9 hours ago, thisismatt said:

 

 

 

Isn't that the other way around? A leaned over shock will travel less than the wheel.

 

 

Nope, sorry. 

 

Many ways to think of this.

 

The shock is the hypotenuse on the triangle.

 

Think of how long a diagonal support mounted to a wall needs to be, much longer than the height of the stud to reach the same vertical height.

 

To go up 10' vertically on a stairway, you have to travel 15' along the stairs.

 

Switchbacks on a mountain.  You might walk a mile or two to change 1000 vertical ft.

 

When the tide comes in, the ocean level may raise 4' but the water's edge climbs a 1/4 mile up the shore.

 

in this case, the shock is at 57degrees from vertical.  For every inch of shock travel, there is 0.84" of vertical movement.

 

This is a simplification of course because the shock angle actually changes with the vertical movement.  The more compressed the suspension, the lower the angle, and the more shock travel required for a given vertical movement.

 

[thisismatt]

Longer length, yes, longer travel, not the way I see it. I don't think your analogies are apples to apples but I'll admit when I'm wrong if I'm not thinking clearly 😄.  I look at it like this. In this picture if you shifted the shock's top mounting position even closer to the middle of the vehicle body they get closer to horizontal and travel less as your wheel goes up, as your hypotenuse (shock) is closer in length to your "run" (axel). As the shock gets even more parallel to the axle it travels less. The only way I see the shock traveling more than the axel is when it's leveraged like off the back of an axle in a 3 or 4 link, or trailing arm.

[mklotz70]

 I was seeing both sides of the argument, but I was on Matt's side.  Had to open up CAD. LOL

 

I moved the top point down 1" to make it easier.  This is assuming the axle is travel straight up and down.  The axle moves 1" and "c"...the hypotenuse changes only .8"    So, by this demo, Matt is correct.  Carter, I think the issue is that your math assumes the angle stays the same and it doesn't.   I was originally thinking the same thing as pic3.....in which case the distance is longer.  There's also a good chance I'm looking at this wrong! LOL :)

[thisismatt]

Yeah, if the shock was rigidly mounted and the axle had to move parallel with the shock axis, then the shock would travel farther than the axle for the axle to move up the y-axis a given amount, like that 3rd illustration, because the hypotenuse has to shrink more at the given angle for the triangle to shrink in the y-axis.

[rosso]

Distance from fender lip to center of axle on my wagon is 11" and I have 2" lowering blocks.

 

[carterb]

Matt and Mike, you of course are correct.

I mentioned my numbers ignored the angle change - which you can't do.  Duh!  😬

 

 

The shock length change is indeed less than the vertical change.  And the farther you lean it over, the less of a change it is (notice how the blue and gray lines diverge in the chart)

 

Makes me feel even better than before with the TS510!  Thanks for pointing out the error in my thinking.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by carterb

[carterb]

On 3/3/2021 at 2:40 PM, rosso said:

Distance from fender lip to center of axle on my wagon is 11" and I have 2" lowering blocks.

 

 

So you would be about 13" stock?

At 12 1/2" it looks like my custom leafs only dropped the car 1/2".  No wonder I need blocks.  : )

 

Looks good by the way Michael!  When do you get your driveline so you can do donuts?

[carterb]

P.S.

 

Thank you Summit Racing for taking my incorrectly ordered shocks back and issuing a full refund.  I was careful to keep them sealed in their original packaging but still...  Thank you!

Edited March 5, 2021 by carterb

[mklotz70]

Sweet!  I'm a bit surprised I was right. lol  I typically shy away from things like this because I tend to miss some point and end up wrong.....plus....after 37 years of marriage.....I'm always wrong at home.......and since we work together, I'm wrong there, as well.  I forgot what this felt like!!! LOL  Thanks!! :)

 

ps....beautiful graph and chart, by the way!! :)

Edited March 5, 2021 by mklotz70

[thisismatt]

50 minutes ago, mklotz70 said:

Sweet!  I'm a bit surprised I was right. lol  I typically shy away from things like this because I tend to miss some point and end up wrong.....plus....after 37 years of marriage.....I'm always wrong at home.......and since we work together, I'm wrong there, as well.  I forgot what this felt like!!! LOL  Thanks!! 🙂

 

ps....beautiful graph and chart, by the way!! 🙂

Dang, I like being wrong only 50% of the time

[rosso]

2 hours ago, carterb said:

 

Looks good by the way Michael!  When do you get your driveline so you can do donuts?

Dropped the driveshaft off today in Fife at Drivelines NW. It's a couple weeks out since they are a bit backlogged.

[carterb]

I ordered a replacement antennae from Amazon weeks ago.  It finally showed up in the mail Friday.  How old are these things?!  Do people still use antennas?  I do!  : )

 

 

I don't think the Mercedes does.  hahaha

 

Friday at lunch I checked Offer Up in the hopes of finding someone parting out a Pathfinder.  My first time using Offer Up!  I found a single ad in my area (no - not a singles ad)  I sent a note to the lister but was not too excited as it had been on there for 4 months. 

 

Well before leaving work I got a note from Miguel - the guy with the Pathfinder.  The ad was still good and his Pathfinder still had the alternator and mount.  Yes!

 

Brenda went with me (we'll do anything for a date these days) this morning to grab the parts.  While there I got the throttle body w/ TPS as well as the MAF just for good measure. 

 

 

I will be ordering a new idler and belt but I wanted to get it bolted up just for kicks.

 

 

So excited to have that job done!