r16 411 4 speed trans build

[erichwaslike]

here is how to make the hard to find proper length pl411 4 speed trans. this will keep u from using a normal roadster one and having ur shifter come out between the seat backs.

 

here is wat u will need for actual datsun parts

 

 

1. a 4 speed roadster trans

2. a 4 speed 510 trans (others can be substituted as long as it has the short rear housing)

thats it now all u need is time and tools

 

u will need these tools

 

a 12mm socket and socket

a 14mm wrench or socket

a 22 mm wrench or socket

a long 3/8 extension, about a foot or so

a pair of snap ring pliers

a drain pan

a drift ( to remove roll pins from shift forks)

a rubber mallet or dead blow hammer

a regular hammer

a magnet on a stick( to grab small parts when they fall in the case during assembly, i know i used it quite a bit!)

a tube of disk bearing grease or trans gel(pretty much any thick grease will do)

a scrapper or razor blade to remove gaskets

brake cleaner

a tube of rtv silicone gasket maker(if u dont have a gasket set of it)

lots of rags

 

also recommended is a friend, gf, boss etc to talk shit while u put the shift forks in for the 10th time to have to remove them once again

 

heres how it goes down

 

start with ur 510 trans

 

1. put ur trans on a stand of some sort and pull the drain plug and drain the oil(22mm on the plug)

 

 

2. flip it over and pull the pan off the bottom (12mm bolts)

 

 

3. tip trans back over and drain any oil left in the case.

 

4. stand trans on bell housing and pull up on rear housing while taping with mallet/dead blow.

 

5. after rear housing is loose rotate it clock wise and move slightly to the passenger side to get the shift linkage to separate.

u shood be left with this.

 

 

6. remove the shift detent bolts. they are the 2 14mm on the side of the case and 1 on top. take caution as there is a spring in side. remove shift rails by driving roll pins out, start with the reverse gear on on the tail shaft and remove the shift rail also. work ur way down to the next one and so on till all three are out.

u shood have this now

 

 

7.remove the front cover where the throw out bearing rides.(12mm)

 

8. drive the counter gear shaft out of the case by pushing it from the rear and out the bell housing side. no need to remove the roll pin in the front.

 

9. pull the counter gearset out and take care as the needle bearings and end washers are going to want to fall out all over the floor. also take note of which washer with the alignment tab came from which side of the case, they are 2 different sizes

 

10.remove the snap ring from the reverse gear on the outside rear section of the case. remove gear also. leave shaft and front gear in the case.

 

11. remove the 4 12mm bolts that are holding in the gearset. tap with mallet/dead blow and remove. do not let the front drive ring selector fall off, the 3 keepers underneath are a pita to reassemble.

 

 

u shood have this now

 

 

12. remove the front gear with input shaft. shood just slide out with the aluminum retainer on it, no need to remove the snap ring.

 

ur case shood now be empty other than the reverse counter gear and shaft in the side of the case to the right

 

 

repeat steps 1-12 on the roadster trans now

 

after u have both cases apart u will need the front case from the roadster trans and the rear housing from the 510 trans. u will also be using the 510 gearset rear section with the 4 bolt plate on it. either counter gear, input gear, or shift rails and forks can be used. they are interchangeable.

 

 

 

here u can see the difference in length on the rear section of the gearset between the roadster(longer) and 510(shorter)

 

 

now go clean the cases halves up that u are reassembling.

 

 

REASSEMBLY

 

1.put ur trans on a bench or stand

 

 

2. put the front gear and input assembly in the case.

 

3. put the rear section of the gearset in the case. take caution to make sure the 3 cutouts in the front synchro are aligned with the 3 keepers in the rear set one under the front selector drive ring

 

 

4.slide the shift forks over the gear selector rings

 

5. grab the counter gearset and slide one of the thin washers in the end. apply a generous amount of grease or trans gel to the inner portion of the counter gearset. slide the shaft into it and reinstall the roller bearings. then add the second thin washer on it. flip the gearset over and repeat it for the other side.

 

 

6.then take the 2 washers that have the tab bent out on them that came out with the counter gearset. apply grease to the side the tab points to and place them on the side of the case. the grease shood hold them in.

 

7. install counter gearset in the case and use a long 3/8 extension to hold it in place, roll it back and forth till it settles in all the gears, shood make a small clunk when it finally seats down in.

 

8. install the counter gearset shaft from the bell housing side, rollpin side pointing out.

 

i forgot to take a any pics of it from here on as i was getting very frustrated with the sift forks.

 

9 reintall the shift forks. make sure u have the 2 small floater "pill" shaped pieces between the 3 holes for the forks. install the lower one with the closed end on the shaft first(the one that has been welded on) then install the detent ball and spring followed by the bolt for that shaft. then put the roll pin in the fork to the shaft. repeat the same fro the next fork. finally install the reverse gear selector and slide the shaft in. install detent ball, spring and bolt in the top of the case and put in the roll pin

 

check ur sift forks one at a time forward and back and make sure the work. if ur center fork wont move remove the roll pin from the reverse shaft and fork and spin it 180* and reinstall the roll pin. recheck shift forks forward and back one at a time.

 

10.now u can silicone one the front cover and bolt it down(12mm)

 

11. put silicone one the rear of the case

 

12. slide the rear housing over the output shaft and work the selector foot into the ends of the shift forks/shafts

 

13. put the bolts in the rear housing to the front case and tighten(12mm)

 

14. silicone the pan and put it on with the remaining bolts(12mm)

 

15. allow trans to sit for at least 3-5 hours depending on the silicone u use before filling with oil(preferably overnight)

 

16. install drain plug and remove the fill plug.

 

17. fill with gear oil according to ur climate and reinstall fill plug

 

install on the back of ur motor!

[gcmustang]

Nice write up. Glad you were able to do it. Makes me think 5 speed in 411 case? Did you look into it at all?

[datzenmike]

Tranny porn!!!!

 

Erich, thanks for that.

[erichwaslike]

Nice write up. Glad you were able to do it. Makes me think 5 speed in 411 case? Did you look into it at all?

 

i looked for the u20 5 speed but i wasnt able to find a trans with a short rear section that had the same internals. im not to familiar with the datsun transmissions tho. is there a 5 speed that uses the front of the 4 speed case?

[gcmustang]

I was thinking case from R16 and internals from a later model with short tail shaft. I have not looked into but bet it could be done like you did with the 4 speed

[erichwaslike]

well the cedric used a h20 which shares a block with the r16 and it had a 5 speed from 71-83 so maybe if i can get some specs off that it may be possible.

[datzenmike]

i looked for the u20 5 speed but i wasnt able to find a trans with a short rear section that had the same internals. im not to familiar with the datsun transmissions tho.

 

FS5C71A Roadster 5 speed.

 

This is the only 5 spd I know of for the Roadster. The bell is removable from the main case, very unlike the F4W63 you swapped the cases on. It was offered as a 5 speed on the 240 Z car with an L series bell below.

 

 

is there a 5 speed that uses the front of the 4 speed case?

 

The F4W63 only came as a four speed. I don't know of any 4 speed case that can be used or converted to a 5 speed. Most, probably all 4 speeds were never intended for this and there is no space for the extra gears needed for an overdrive. The F4W71B 4 speed became the FS5W71B 5 speed by adding a 5th gear, but it's in the tailstock.

 

.

[erichwaslike]

ok so on the fs5c71a is the tail section any differenet on the zcar one? does this trans have another counter part like the f4w is available in the 63 series and in the 52 or 56 something liek that and they had different length tail housings? is there anywhere that has a list of all the 4 and 5 speed listed that were used from the 60s to 70s or 80s? casue then i cood research which ones aare interchangable but right now i dont know where to look. ive already entertained the idea but had to get a normal 4 speed together to drive it first

[dirtboy411]

good job doode. gives me a lil insight on changing mines out. have you driven the car yet to see if it worked. final testing. lol.

[erichwaslike]

no my car still has no wiring motor or trans installed. but i know it works i ran it thru all the gears and it shifts fine. they are the same trans with just a different length output shaft and housing and the belhousing. the internals are all the same. so as long as there are no extra parts after it will work fine. are u going to do it urself when u do swap or r u gonna need someone to build it?

[erichwaslike]

ok so turns out it does matter wat input shaft u use one it. the one from the 510 is 1/2 too long and u cant bolt the trans up tight. instead of tearing it apart again i cut the half inch off and rebeveled the end and it works fine. so it ur roadster one is toast a 510 will work if shortened.

[datzenmike]

Excellent.

[datzenmike]

ok so on the fs5c71a is the tail section any differenet on the zcar one? does this trans have another counter part like the f4w is available in the 63 series and in the 52 or 56 something liek that and they had different length tail housings? is there anywhere that has a list of all the 4 and 5 speed listed that were used from the 60s to 70s or 80s? casue then i cood research which ones aare interchangable but right now i dont know where to look. ive already entertained the idea but had to get a normal 4 speed together to drive it first

 

The FS5C71A was a competition box available in Europe for the Z car. (I think the dealer or Nismo/Datsun Motorsports.. whatever the racing arm of Nissan is) could order it for you. Some were imported to N AM. (don't quote me on this) The only difference is the bell housing used to convert it for use on an L series motor.

 

I doubt it is available in a smaller size. The 71 is the distance between the main and counter shafts in mm and this determines the maximum diameter (and strength) of the gears. A 63 or 56 would be too 'light' for L16 and up race motors.