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waynos 521 work truck


wayno

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1 hour ago, Charlie69 said:

Wayne the problems you describe about the cam timing being of one tooth and running fine for a long time and the you re-timed the cam an you had issues.   This would lead me to believe the pully with the yellow notch and the saw tooth timing plate are not a matched set.  I think I would spend the money and get a degree wheel and go from there.

 

Charlie, this is new to me, my other block that wasted the head had the right/proper crank pulley, I only noticed the crank pulley on this block had the timing marks yesterday when I went to start it for the first time, I left the distributor where it was timed(6 degrees BTDC) for that other block as I moved the pedestal/distributor complete, so I expect it is close to that, but when I pulled the trigger on the timing light it was confusing, you see it appeared that if I used the saw tooth timing plate 0 degrees mark and use the large notch I painted yellow on the crank pulley which I assume is 0 degrees, then it is idling at 30 degrees BTDC with the vacuum advance removed, so this makes me think the pointer on the timing chain cover is in a different spot, and 0 degrees on the saw tooth plate is wrong for that crank pulley, and the timing marks on the crank pulley are in the wrong spot for the use of that saw tooth plate, I just don't see the engine starting that easy timed 30 degrees BTDC, the engine would kick backwards when trying to start it.

 

Maybe 20 degrees on the saw tooth plate is 0 for that crank pulley???, that is why I wrote that long post, to give everyone an idea of what is and has been going on with that engine.

 

When I timed the cam properly I did find a little more power, but it started knocking really bad and why I had it timed at 0 degrees and that is why I re-curved the distributor per the distributorguys instructions and had it timed at 6 degrees BTDC after that, but it destroyed my first super head over a 1 or 2 year period, this new head has even larger intakes and i don't want to screw it up.

 

Someone on here has likely dealt with this and knows what mark on the pulley or what degree mark on the saw tooth plate to call 0 degrees, the photo below shows around where it is idling at with the timing light, I drove it this way and it doesn't appear to be knocking, so it cannot be right for either gauge, these 2 parts are not compatible, if I were to guess right now I would say the very bottom edge of the saw tooth plate might be 5 to 10 degrees retarded, maybe more. 😞

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Edited by wayno
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1 hour ago, d.p said:

Doesn’t even matter if they aren’t matched? I mean if you find TDC while building it and marked the pulley accordingly then wherever the timing plate pointed would be 0 right? 

 

OK, I went with your thinking, your explanation is simple, I pulled #1 plug, used a stiff wire and without looking down at the timing marks found what I thought was TDC, then I looked down to find the yellow mark on the pulley lined up with the 0 degree mark on the saw tooth plate, it cannot be right as were talking about it sparking 30 degrees before the piston reaches the top, 30 degrees is a lot and everything I know tells me it would kick back when trying to start it but I don't know everything, in all my life I have never had anything run properly advanced that far at an idle, even half that far it would be knocking like hell when driven and take out the rod bearings according to my machinist as i talked to him about how that head may have been ruined, he said it was running lean and hot, he said knocking/pinging did not do that to that head, he also said running it retarded could do that to it and I had it timed at 0 degrees for quite a while because anything above 0 degrees and it started knocking/pinging, then I re-curved the distributor and timed it at 6 degrees but sometimes I thought I could hear it slightly knocking on hot days.

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This was a Z22 block bored to 89mm with Z24 pistons and Z22/L20b rods? Compression with closed L head is 8.8.

 

One cam tooth is 9 degrees or 4.5 crank.

 

Depends which was it was off but if the intake was closing 4.5 degrees late originally, correcting the cam timing to an earlier closing may have increased the cylinder filling. In effect the engine took a bigger bite of air and the compression went up. This could easily cause it to ping on the original timing you had.

 

Z22 block. If yours is different say so. On the manifold side there are coolant holes on both sides of the 3 middle head bolts.

 P1lLcqV.jpg

 

 

 

On the head there is only cooling holes on the middle head bolt on the manifold side. Did you drill any holes in the block or head? I thought you were supposed to when putting an L head on a Z22 block.

004.JPG.849d52bf980a1abf6dce7fed74017930.JPG

 

 

 

 

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Yes it is a Z22 block and I drilled all the necessary holes in the block, I did not drill any holes in the head.

 

Ok I started over and went back to basics, first I checked the cam timing and it was off(rotated clockwise), I have no idea how that happened as I thought I fixed that when I realized I had all my cams timed wrong, I tried to get it to look like the photo you posted but that is impossible, I cannot get the groove on the right side of the notch unless it is way to the right, this is what I settled on at this time.

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I could have went with it on the right, all the dowel holes looked the same, the groove was way right, #1 looked like #2 and #3, but the photo did not turn out.

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I suppose I could put it on #1.

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So I got the timing back to 20 degrees changing the cam timing, next I looked at the distributor, it was already retarded as far as the plate would let it go, I had it aligned at TDC as that is what I have determined, the big notch on the pulley and 0 degrees on the saw tooth plate aligned with each other is TDC, so I pulled the distributor and looked down the hole, the distributor drive was spot on, I was not looking forward to removing the oil pump to re-time the shaft so this made me happy, I was trying to figure out what was going on when I looked at the bottom of the distributor and seen that little 5/16" bolt had the plate adjusted all the way advanced, so I loosened that bolt and turned it all the way the other way, tightened it and dropped the distributor in and I was able to get it timed at 6 degrees BTDC, I have never had to do stuff like this before, I have never touched that small bolt before and never had an issue.

 

Now I can time that cam where the groove is way to the right, but I can not get it like the photos you have posted Mike, even with the chain not on the gear either the groove is slightly left or way right in every dowel hole, #1 looks slightly better than #2 which I can easily do, but I cannot get it to look like this photo you posted in another thread I posted below.

otMggUE.jpg

 

I also had to remove the thermostat, the temp was all over the place on the test drive and it was running hotter than I am used to, it was doing weird stuff in my driveway like filling and over flowing the coolant reservoir and then emptying it and when I removed the radiator cap it was low again, I put another thermostat in there and it appears to have quit acting weird but still is running slightly hotter than I am used to and I put the thermostat in that was in the other engine so I know what it normally runs at.

 

The engine sounds better now, it appears to have more power but I never got out of first gear on my street, I will test drive it tomorrow, it started so easily at 30 something degrees that it baffled me and it did not knock/ping when I test drove it which likely was because the cam was timed wrong.

 

 

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 I don't believe a lean mixture caused the damage. True, a richer mixture does cool the air down and reduce detonation but this should only happen during heavy throttle applications. 

 

The erosion on the head begs the question... what do the piston tops look like???

 

010.JPG.3b0ec0bb7142508359c9c2f8422c65fe.JPG

 

This is the closest to perfect cam timing you can get without using cam tower shims.

 

 

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If you don't believe that is what caused that damage then what caused it i your opinion?

I drove it somewhere around 6 years with the cam timed wrong without issues, then I timed the cam properly and had all sorts of issues with knocking/pinging, I timed it at 0 degrees for a while, and then I re-curved the distributor and drove it that way for a while timed around 6 degrees BTDC, I lost that headgasket in April of 2020 a while after the distributor re-curve but the knocking had gotten worse before that during the timed at 0 degrees era and that is why I re-curved the distributor as it was getting worse, that is when it ate thru #4 ring, I suspect that is why the knocking was getting worse, the ring was deteriorating and had a sharp edge causing the knocking, you think it happened then?

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Keep in mind here that I did not see the damage to the head, it could have happened at any time, it might have been there for a long time, maybe years, and I just changed the headgasket and called it good, I did not take a photo of the head back in April 9, 2020.

 

I also want to ask where you use the feeler gauge when adjusting the valves, do you measure between the cam and the rocker or between the lash pad and the rocker?

 

I will put the cam gear on #1 right now, it's not raining.

 

4 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 I don't believe a lean mixture caused the damage. True, a richer mixture does cool the air down and reduce detonation but this should only happen during heavy throttle applications. 

 

The erosion on the head begs the question... what do the piston tops look like???

 

010.JPG.3b0ec0bb7142508359c9c2f8422c65fe.JPG

 

This is the closest to perfect cam timing you can get without using cam tower shims.

 

 

 

 

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I do between the lobe and rocker 'cause easier' but this will make the actual clearances at the valve stem larger than they are supposed to be. Set at the lash pad will run quieter.

 

 

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The erosion on the head is detonation caused by the increasing pressure in the combustion chamber from the regular ignition of the gas and air. This is indicated by it being the farthest distance away from the spark plug and the worst of it closest to the exhaust valve and away from the cooling afforded by the inrush of cooling air from the intake valve.

 

 

There are several things unanswered....

 

Were the original crank ignition timing marks correct? (if not what really was the timing set at so long ago when it ran ok?)

Why was the advance curve changed? (to bring in the mechanical advance sooner, limit max advance, or both?)

Was the head erosion before or after all the changes to cam and ignition timing?

 

 

BTW the head could easily enough be TIG welded and a surface skim to true it up.

 

 

   

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4 hours ago, datzenmike said:

I do between the lobe and rocker 'cause easier' but this will make the actual clearances at the valve stem larger than they are supposed to be. Set at the lash pad will run quieter.

 

 

004.JPG.849d52bf980a1abf6dce7fed74017930.JPG

The erosion on the head is detonation caused by the increasing pressure in the combustion chamber from the regular ignition of the gas and air. This is indicated by it being the farthest distance away from the spark plug and the worst of it closest to the exhaust valve and away from the cooling afforded by the inrush of cooling air from the intake valve.

 

 

There are several things unanswered....

 

Were the original crank ignition timing marks correct? (if not what really was the timing set at so long ago when it ran ok?)

Why was the advance curve changed? (to bring in the mechanical advance sooner, limit max advance, or both?)

Was the head erosion before or after all the changes to cam and ignition timing?

 

 

BTW the head could easily enough be TIG welded and a surface skim to true it up.

 

 

   

I do not remember what it was timed at before when the cam was timed wrong, I expect it was likely not up near 10 degrees as I have been running regular in it all these years.

 

The reason the distributor was re-curved is because I put the cam at the proper timing and the engine knocked so bad I had to run it at 0 degrees to keep it from knocking, so I asked distributorguy on here how to re-curve my distributor to limit the advance and then I ran it at around 6 degrees BTDC, but like I said before on hot days I thought it might be knocking/pinging a little on a slight uphill grade just before my exit going home, I do not hear so good anymore.

I have no idea when the head erosion occurred, I did not even know it was there until AC pointed it out to me after they started milling it to take any warp out of it, I only know I changed out the head gasket in April 2020 and I did not notice it then, but I did not notice it this time either until it was pointed out to me. 😞

 

I have another W53 head in the shed that looks like the early L16 heads(semi open), I am thinking about having AC put all the valves in this head in that head, but maybe I will look into having it welded up, AC also mentioned that.

 

I put the cam gear on number 1 dowel hole and it retarded the timing quite a bit, the groove is close to being centered on the notch, just a tiny bit to the left instead of the right like in your photo, I had to advance it about 10 degrees as it was 5 degrees retarded after the cam gear dowel hole change from 2 to 1, right now it is at 5 or 6 degrees BTDC, if I hear no knocking I might advance it a couple degrees at a time until I hear it knock and then back it off a couple degrees.

 

I took it for a test drive with the trailer and it smoked under load a little a couple times, but I have less than 20 miles on the engine, it starts and runs smoother than the other engine, the engine has a different noise when running, I can hear valve noise, but the exhaust sounds the same, I can hear squeaking, but you have to keep in mind that this engine is running much quieter right now than before with the other engine, so I can hear stuff I could not hear before, it is a lot quieter, I got all the exhaust leaks fixed. :lol:

 

I expect I will pull the plugs when I change the oil in 200 miles, I am hoping to see black as I set the SUs a little richer than I normally would have done, I think I have BPR6EY in it now as that is what was in the head(new plugs), I had BPR5EY spark plugs in the head that was damaged.

 

 

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The pistons have no damage that I can see, here is a photo of the block.

004.JPG.a2e65d25889eb7f3f22c3f43182eae30.JPG

 

I read a little about the plugs and understand that the BPR5EY is a hotter plug that the BPR6EY, I even have a used BPR5ES from the past in my spark plug stash in case I break a plug removing/installing them, I just want to use the right plugs in this engine, if what is in it is wrong tell me what I should be running and I will buy a set of them.

 

When I look at this block and damaged head I just do not see steam cleaned like one would see when an engine gets hot, I drove it 40 miles or more and it did not steam clean anything.

Edited by wayno
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1 hour ago, Charlie69 said:

The lack of carbon deposit on #1 piston seams odd to me unless this is caused by the camera angle.

 

That was the cylinder that had that dead end coolant hole in the block that the head did not have, it also appeared to have black soot past the ring on both sides at this dead end hole, this made me think that it had most the coolant enter the cylinder of the 4 cylinders when under compression as it sucked the coolant into the cylinder and it was the cleanest, I also accidentally hit some of the edge of the piston with my wire wheel when I was prepping the block for the head gasket, but I put a straight edge on the head and decided it needed milled so I took it to my machine shop I use and that is how I found out how damaged the head was, I see an L head but I don't see the imperfections, this is why others have to do stuff like that, I can only do stuff that can be done over if needed, one of the few precise things I have ever made is them adapter plates to put a short shaft 5 speed onto a E1/J13/J15 block, I sold 2 of them at the Powerland meet in 2019(Canby), Von and Bannanahamock have them in their 411s with 5spds from 2wd 1985/86 Nissan 720 regular cab/short bed trucks with short shaft 5spds with an L block front case.

 

Fact is this head gasket failure had signs of impending failure, but I did that compression test which got me, 180/185/185/190 seemed fine to me so I drove it to the job, I actually made the job without issues, but it never ran right after I started it to go home and it did not overheat, the temp gauge never got over a little over half way and when I added water it never spit it back out like it does when a block is overheated and you add coolant, I had removed the thermostat so if it over heated it would have spit out steam which it never did, any coolant that came out just got everything wet as the block even on the outside was not hot enough to turn it into steam.

 

I towed the trailer today in a test drive, everything seems good with this block even though I had a rough confusing start, I thought I had corrected the cam timing on this block, if I did I went the wrong way and made it worse instead of better, that is all I can think of as I recall I checked and re-did every L block cam I had on the property as they were all timed wrong, having the cam lobes at 10am and 2pm is not right, it is closer to 11am and 3pm I think, it has been a long time since I did set up an engine, I did not even look at the lobes this time, only the groove and notch in the plate, that is all I looked at, I did make a much better timing chain keeper, this one works great.

 

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Edited by wayno
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Wayno I have timed many "L" motors over the years and have not experienced what you have.  I always time to position #2 on the cam sprocket.

 

When I received my L20B for my 66 520 from the rebuild shop I had to re-time as they timed it to #1 position on the cam sprocket.

 

 Man it is devastating to loose an engine, but even more so to find the head to be non usable.

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2 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

It is imperative to make sure the timing pointer is correct before diagnosing incorrect cam timing. Actually, double checking the pointer would be part of the diagnosing process.

 

Totally agree. No telling what the cam or ignition timing was at.

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I thought the pulley was the L20b to go with the saw tooth indicator.   I always keep these timing components as matched sets L20B, Z20, Z22, Z24 all together as sets.  But I will say I have not built any Frankenstein Datsun engines.

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8 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

It is imperative to make sure the timing pointer is correct before diagnosing incorrect cam timing. Actually, double checking the pointer would be part of the diagnosing process.

 

OK, I took out #1 plug and used a stiff wire to find TDC, when I found it I looked down and found the painted large notch(yellow) on the pulley and the 0 degree mark on the saw tooth plate lined up, so 0 and the large notch on the pulley are TDC, I screwed up on the cam timing somehow and moved it a tooth on the gear the wrong way, I did this 3 years ago maybe, and that is why I turned the engine over by hand before using the starter to turn it over, I was checking to make sure no valves were hitting as this one has 44mm intakes and I wanted to make sure nothing was hitting anything, I found the cam timed wrong after that as I was positive I had moved it over a tooth 3 years ago, but it turned out to be the wrong way, I expect I did not double check it because it was just a spare engine in my back room and I had taken care of it back then.

The engine timing issue is why I brought this thread back to life, I thought there was no way it should have started timed at 30 degrees BTDC when idling and I did not understand this, it should have kicked back that far advanced when trying to start it that first time, but this was my fault for assuming I had everything right, I assumed things, that is why I posted photos of the saw tooth plate and the pulley with the timing marks on it, I wanted to know where 0 degrees was for sure and I assumed others had run across this before

 

The way I figured it when I moved the distributor over from one LZ23 block to the other LZ23 block it should have been the same, the rotor was pointed at #1, oh well it could have been worse, I could have not turned it over by hand and just used the stater and bent a valve but that did not happen as i did not assume that everything cleared, I checked by turning it over by hand 2 complete revolutions without the spark plugs in it, so it turned over easy, at that time I also turned it over with the starter until oil was covering everything, the electric gauge even showed oil pressure, I wanted to see oil in the valve cover as the engine had sat for maybe 6 years in my back room.

 

I likely put 20 miles on it today, I did not hear it knocking/pinging, the only thing it did was if I was going up and incline and dropped it into 4th gear to keep my speed up after a half minute I could see some smoke coming out of the tail pipe, it seems to smoke when around 4000rpms under load but it clears right up when I let off the pedal and shift to 5th gear, it just doesn't seem to like 4000rpms under load(I tow a trailer), but it has less than 40 miles on the rings.

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8 hours ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

Im a little late to the show but by the looks of it I would get rid of the sawtooth timing plate and put the L16 pointer back on to match the L16 pulley thats on there

 

I do not have an L16 pointer, I have not had an L16 around here in years, I expect that I should have just put the L20b pulley on it, but it was already in the truck before I noticed the pulley, so like I said I revived this thread to ask about the saw tooth plate and pulley with the timing marks on it, I had no replies about it.

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3 hours ago, Charlie69 said:

I thought the pulley was the L20b to go with the saw tooth indicator.   I always keep these timing components as matched sets L20B, Z20, Z22, Z24 all together as sets.  But I will say I have not built any Frankenstein Datsun engines.

 

Yea, I did not check things that i should have checked, I assumed I did it right 6 years ago, then seen Mikes photo and realized all my L blocks had the cam timing wrong, the first work truck LZ23 had the cam timed wrong for at least 3 years and it did not knock/ping, only after I timed the cam properly did I have the knocking/pinging issue, I almost put the cam back to where it was(timed wrong), but instead I made the re-curved distributor, I had more power and the exhaust sounded right, but somewhere in the last 3 year period it damaged the head.

 

I just went out to the parts shed and found an L20b pulley, so i have a proper pulley to install on the engine, but I figured out myself that 0 degrees on the saw tooth plate is 0 degrees on the L16 pulley if using the big notch that I painted yellow on that pulley, 0 degrees is in the same place no matter what pulley is used.

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6 minutes ago, d.p said:

I replied.  Meaning if you found TDC without a pointer than installed any pointer and any pulley where ever that pointer was pointing to that pulley would be 0 right?  

 

I went with what you posted and found TDC using the piston, and yes if at TDC, any pulley installed, where ever the pointer was pointed would be TDC, that is actually how I figured it out, thankyou.

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And it lined up to 0 on the saw tooth?  If so then I think that would be ok to go from there?  I do know when my truck was acting funny as hell no power it ended up being my dizzy. Specifically my pertronix dizzy(swapped for an electric and problems went away)  but we all know with these trucks it could be anything. 

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1 minute ago, Charlie69 said:

There is room for error inthis thinking.  you have to be TDC on the compression stroke.  These are 4 stroke engines

 

I always remove the oil cap and look where the lobe is, if pointed down it is 180 out, otherwise I just pop off the distributor cap and see where the rotor is pointed, either way works for me.

Fact is the valve cover was off the engine as much as it was on the engine when I was trying to figure this out, I knew what stroke it was on, but that cam being that far off stunned me, I changed the cam timing on 3 blocks that day 3 years ago, the work truck LZ23, the 520 L20b, and this fresh LZ23 spare engine, I got it right on the other 2 engines, but somehow I got this spare engine wrong, I thought I did it to 4 engines, I might have changed the LZ20 blocks cam timing also.

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