waynos 521 work truck

[wayno]

I drove it today and it didn't catch fire yet, but it was raining so hard that I just can't see anything catching fire in the first place without flammable fluids to get it started. :lol:

I have to mention that my wipers move faster than I can ever remember them moving, and the turn signal indicators are brighter than I can ever remember them being, that is why I like 520 instrument clusters, because they are yellow/amber, and I can see them, as I have never been able to see the green ones blinking, as they have been so dim.

It's still annoying to see that volt meter jumping around, but I can get used to the rest(fast wipers, ect.).

I did notice a rattle on deceleration, and I am thinking it has something to do with the alternator, when it quits raining I will take a look at it.

[wayno]

I got tired of the starter not working, so I installed the ford relay.

 

I then made a plate to connect the solenoid post to the starter motor power post.

I really thought this was going to take care of the issue, but I am finding that I still have the problem, it's weird, everytime I used a screwdriver and jumped the posts, the starter worked, but I still have the same issue, I am beginning to think that the starter gear is not engaging the flywheel teeth, but hitting the flywheel and stopping, because if I push the truck even a little, put it into gear and pop the clutch and hit the starter at the same time, the starter works right away everytime.

[oldskoolvws]

Pull the starter, inspect teeth on flywheel. On any of the starters you, have you (or is it even possible) to check the solenoid contacts? Also I'm not familiar with the interchageabilty with Datsun / Nissan starters, but are you sure the solenoid throw is long enough to engage the teeth on the starter on the non-521 starters?

 

Makes no sense that you can start it with a screwdriver but not the switch, even if the teeth / flywheel have issue.

[wayno]

Pull the starter, inspect teeth on flywheel. On any of the starters you, have you (or is it even possible) to check the solenoid contacts? Also I'm not familiar with the interchageabilty with Datsun / Nissan starters, but are you sure the solenoid throw is long enough to engage the teeth on the starter on the non-521 starters?

 

Makes no sense that you can start it with a screwdriver but not the switch, even if the teeth / flywheel have issue.

 

I know, it baffles me also, I have been trying everything to get this situation figured out, my engine fries starters at the rate of at least two a year minimum, the starter I am using now is a Z24 starter, when I put it in there, it worked great, but now I am back to the same crap, having to basicly push start it again, when I have a half a ton or more debris in the back of the truck, and have the trailer connected(most the time), it is a bitch to get rolling by hand long enough to actually move the engine enough to get the starter to work, and another problem is that it is a dually, so when I am trying to push it, I have to be very carefull that the bed of the truck doesn't catch the back of my legs while pushing, it would just be nice if the starter would work correctly.

This is a longtime issue, it has been going on for years, but I can say this, since I removed the wires going to the starter solenoid, and only have the main power wire now, the starter does turn much faster, and the engine starts much sooner, the way it was starting was the starter turned slower than it does now, and it took several revolutions before the engine would hit.

I have been thinking that my wiring is messed up, and somehow it was destroying the armature and/or the solenoid, but now I have it wired so there is no wire with any power going to the starter solenoid without hitting the key, but maybe this one is already messed up now.

[DanielC]

Wayno, a few suggestions.

First, check the voltage drops in both the positive side and negative side of the start circuit

For the positive side, put the positive voltmeter probe on the battery post, not the terminal. Put the negative probe on the braided cable coming out of the starter motor, and crank the engine.

Here is your picture, with a line going to where the negative voltmeter probe should go.

 

In the same manner, check the voltage drop in the negative side by putting the positive probe on the starter case, and the negative probe on the negative battery terminal.

 

When the engine is cranking, the voltage drops should be less than .2 volts, .5 volts is adequate, but not good.

 

Using a Ford solenoid is going to reduce the force the starter pinion engages the flywheel with. Here is why.

On a stock Datsun starter, turning the key to "start" applies the full battery voltage to the solenoid. The solenoid moves, and does two functions. Moves the pinion, and after the pinion is engaged into the flywheel, closes the contacts to the starter motor. The starter motor then tries to rotate the engine flywheel, and drags the battery voltage down. With the Datsun system, full voltage is applied to the solenoid, then drops when cranking.

 

With the Ford relay in the system, both the starter motor and the solenoid get battery voltage at the same time. This has two problems. One, the solenoid actually gets less voltage, because it is sharing the load with the starter motor, and two, the starter motor starts to spin before the starter pinion is engaged into the flywheel.

[Laecaon]

My experience with 2 different cars where the car wouldnt crank with the key, but would with a screw driver.

 

My 510 would just do the clicking when using the key, no mater what. But as soon as a used a screw driver (actually I used a hammer) the starter engaged and the car started instantly. The only thing I did to the car to get it working with the key, was new battery cables. I am not sure why this would fix anything, but it did.

 

On my 93 Ford Thunderbird, it had just blown a head gasket (I was not aware of this at the moment though) and coolant was entering the cylinder very fast. When I went to start the car, after only being off for 5 minutes it would turn over once and then click, like it had a bad battery. I had my roommate come and give me a jump, but that did nothing. So then I jumped the started solenoid with a screwdriver, and it cranked with more gusto than ever before with a key (no jumper cables when I did this).

 

Maybe you can infer something from this.

 

 

If you have any other running datsuns, you might try these "bad" starters in them and see what happens. Also start measuring voltage differences between the 2 at certain key points like mentioned by Daniel.

[wayno]

My experience with 2 different cars where the car wouldnt crank with the key, but would with a screw driver.

 

My 510 would just do the clicking when using the key, no mater what. But as soon as a used a screw driver (actually I used a hammer) the starter engaged and the car started instantly. The only thing I did to the car to get it working with the key, was new battery cables. I am not sure why this would fix anything, but it did.

 

On my 93 Ford Thunderbird, it had just blown a head gasket (I was not aware of this at the moment though) and coolant was entering the cylinder very fast. When I went to start the car, after only being off for 5 minutes it would turn over once and then click, like it had a bad battery. I had my roommate come and give me a jump, but that did nothing. So then I jumped the started solenoid with a screwdriver, and it cranked with more gusto than ever before with a key (no jumper cables when I did this).

 

Maybe you can infer something from this.

 

 

If you have any other running datsuns, you might try these "bad" starters in them and see what happens. Also start measuring voltage differences between the 2 at certain key points like mentioned by Daniel.

 

Since it would start before with the screwdriver everytime, the battery cable is not the issue, and it turns over really fast now when it turns, it is a differant cable also.

I have used a set of jumper cables on the old starters on the ground, none of them work properly anymore, one turns over very slowly if I hit it with a hammer, the other will not work anymore at all, it was turning over very slowly while in the truck at the end, then it just stopped turning while in the truck, and never moved again.

Maybe the two weeks it was in the truck wasted the one in there now, even though it was a used starter, it worked really good at first.

Can the starter having a bad ground cause the armature to go bad, it doesn't seem like it would have a bad ground being it is bolted to the engine/transmission/trans. plate, but something has to be wrong, as these starters over a period of time turn slower and slower like I have a bad battery, but my battery is good, as when it turns over right now it really turns fast, the issue at this time is the click of death, as if it keeps doing it I will be killing it eventually with a sledge hammer or something else heavy that produces results.

[wayno]

Wayno, a few suggestions.

First, check the voltage drops in both the positive side and negative side of the start circuit

For the positive side, put the positive voltmeter probe on the battery post, not the terminal. Put the negative probe on the braided cable coming out of the starter motor, and crank the engine.

Here is your picture, with a line going to where the negative voltmeter probe should go.

 

In the same manner, check the voltage drop in the negative side by putting the positive probe on the starter case, and the negative probe on the negative battery terminal.

 

When the engine is cranking, the voltage drops should be less than .2 volts, .5 volts is adequate, but not good.

 

Using a Ford solenoid is going to reduce the force the starter pinion engages the flywheel with. Here is why.

On a stock Datsun starter, turning the key to "start" applies the full battery voltage to the solenoid. The solenoid moves, and does two functions. Moves the pinion, and after the pinion is engaged into the flywheel, closes the contacts to the starter motor. The starter motor then tries to rotate the engine flywheel, and drags the battery voltage down. With the Datsun system, full voltage is applied to the solenoid, then drops when cranking.

 

With the Ford relay in the system, both the starter motor and the solenoid get battery voltage at the same time. This has two problems. One, the solenoid actually gets less voltage, because it is sharing the load with the starter motor, and two, the starter motor starts to spin before the starter pinion is engaged into the flywheel.

 

When it turns over, it turns fast, faster than I have ever recall, but it started this clicking thing slowly, over a period of a week it went from hardly ever to most the time, if I keep hitting the key over and over, most the time it will eventually work, but one gets tired of hitting the key a hundred times before getting results, but once it does work, the engine starts immediately.

I thought this way I did it would have fixed this issue, as everytime I have jumped it with a screwdriver it started without clicking, but now the relay is slamming on the inner fender well, which is very loud, I have not tried jumping the new relay yet though, I just push the truck enough to make the flywheel move while hitting the key to start it, so far that has worked everytime, this whole thing is getting old, it did the same thing on the old L20b engine also, I am using totally differant cables now also, but nothing has changed except for the speed the starter turns now, much faster since taking the alt. cable off of the starter post and routing it directly to the battery.

[DanielC]

Electric motors are weird animals. They draw more current, the slower they turn. An electric motor is just coil of wire, and if it was not turning at all, it pretty much would be a dead short circuit.

However, when an electric motor is turning, it generates a counter voltage that opposes the voltage applied to it. the faster the motor turns, the higher the counter voltage, the less current it draws.

 

So what happens when you do not have a good connection to a starter motor? The starter motor gets less voltage. It turns slower. In trying to do its job, it actually draws more current than it was designed for. It seems counter intuitive, but a poor connection to an electric motor, a connection with some resistance, causes the current in the whole circuit to go up.

 

Current flow is what heats up the starter motor. More current, more heat. But it is worse than that. If you double the current flowing through a load, you increase the heating by a factor of 4. Three time the current, 9 times the heat generated. The heat is what is hard on the starter motor.

 

So lets say you have a slightly bad connection somewhere in the charging circuit. It is possible that your alternator regulator thinks the battery is fully charged, and it is not. Battery voltage is OK, but not optimum. Lower battery voltage, lower voltage to the starter. The starter draws more current. Lets say that same bad connection, is also part of the starter circuit. Your starter circuit now has two strikes against it.

 

This evening, I went out and did some voltage test on Ratsun. The battery voltage was 12.18, Ratsun has not been ran since the beginning of October. I put a six amp battery charger on the battery, and in about an hour, the battery voltage was up to 12.88.

 

Battery voltage at start of tests. 12.88

Voltage drop from the positive battery post to the cable between the starter motor, and solenoid, .266 volts.

Voltage drop from the negative battery post to a bolt on the back of the starter motor, .206 volts.

Voltage at the battery, when cranking. 10.86 Volts. (above 10 is OK)

Battery voltage at end of tests. 12.38

Then I started the engine, let it run for a few minutes, and checked voltage at the battery posts, engine running. 14.50 volts

[wayno]

I understand the concept of a half dead battery is very hard on a starter, or a bad battery cable/connection would create/simulate a half dead battery, but when I put a different starter that has not ever been in this truck, everything works great for a while, and then things start going down hill fast, either it starts clicking, or the starter motor starts slowing down till it stops, like it has a dead/bad battery, but this battery is fine, as I have tried other batteries also, fact is that when this starter motor goes/connects, it goes fast, faster than any I have used in recent memory, it is a Z24 starter.

In all this time that I have been talking about this issue, I did forget to mention that I have more issues when the engine is warmed up than when cold, but it still does it when cold also, just not as much.

I have completely re-wired this area, the only cable that goes to the starter motor is the main cable to supply the starter with power, the alt. wire goes straight to the battery now, and the starter exciter wire goes to the ford relay, so there is no power to the starter now unless being turned over, maybe it is to late for this starter now, since it started this crap less than two weeks after installed, I might go and buy another starter to get a fresh start if this crap continues.

[oldskoolvws]

Wanyo, DanielC's information is accurate in my skilled trade opinion. Another likely source of the problem, if local components have been replaced is a bad termination or cable. You should disconnect and clean each one (or replace). When you direct short with a screw driver and it starts every time, it means the problem is between the output side of the starter solenoid all the way to the ignition switch. Here are three pics of my Toyota starter I rebuilt yesterday, same principal of operation. I would guess that battery cables providing main power are equivalent to about 4 or 6 AWG. Look in the starter, it is immediately reduced to about maybe a 14 AWG for solenoid power. The rest of the power is transferred across the plunger face when the solenoid pulls in the plunger. The simple principal is create a magnetic field with current, pull down the plunger and close the contact face to enable the starter motor. If this is worn, it will not close the circuit. When you direct short with a screw driver, you bypass the normal contact path across the starter contacts and provide the starter with current it requires to turn the engine. See my contacts below. The line side is the worn set, the load side is the other with hardly any wear at all, CLICK.

 

My guess at this point is your over "volting" the starter because of your alternator mod resulting in larger than normal arcing across the line side (battery) of the starter solenoid. It arcs every time you try to start the truck. This "hotter" arcing results in accelerated wear because your out of the normal designed heat range of the contact. Over a very short time, you kill the line side of the starter contact resulting in CLICK. I would take one of your dead starters and dissect to validate or funk my theory.

 

Okay, I just turned back off to stupid. Hopeful.

 

 

NEW CONTACTS

 

PLUNGER (still needs cleaning but it is the contact patch)

 

OLD CONTACTS

[oldskoolvws]

Also, I would check your compression. High compression equals higher amperage which equals higher heat generation. When you warm up, it exasperates the situation.

[wayno]

OK, I will try to explain exactly what it is doing, if you removed the main/big cable from the battery to the starter post(solenoid side), and hit the key, it would click but not run, because it has no power to run the starter motor, that is exactly how it acts, but if I jumped it with a big screwdriver, it started/ran everytime the first try when that post had power.

IMO, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect differant results, this is my attempt at trying to get a differant result.

This issue has been going on for years, I have went threw 10 to 15 starters over the last 10 years, I have now isolated the starter the best I can, I have it wired like a ford, I thought this would fix it, but obviously I have not, either it is messed up now because it was already messed up before doing this latest modifacation, so it is messed up before the mod, or the issue is the alt. or fuse box, because that is the only thing left to remove from the positive battery post, the alt. has been changed several times also over the last couple years, you see the freaking alt. light has been half on for years, I have changed everything, the alt, the voltage regulator, it was charging for over a year with the light saying it wasn't, but when it did quit, I had no idea till the battery was almost dead, then I went to a internally regulated alt, that almost got the light out, but only lasted a couple years, then the light got very bright about a month ago, so I tested and fitted two internally reg. alts, neither worked, I couldn't get either to charge, so now I put a 210 alt. in it, this one seems to be charging, the light goes out, but my volt meter inside the truck is jumping around like a blinker is on all the time, I had it tested at baxters, they said it was putting out over 14 volts, but also said it was jumping, but this all happened after the starter started acting up again, and this is why I have isolated the starter, there is no power to either post of the starter, unless I turn the key to the start position now.

This is a fresh LZ23 engine, with about a 8.9 to 1 CR, but I have been having the same issues with the L20b, at one point I had a shucks lifetime starter in the truck, after about the fourth free starter, I started feeling guilty and bought a expensive baxters starter, that one lasted maybe a little over a year, when that one quit, I got it to turn maybe quarter speed by using jumper cables while sitting on the ground and hitting it very hard with a hammer, it turned very slowly.

Maybe this week I will go to NAPA and see if they have a starter for my truck, see how long that one lasts.

My battery does not have a drain, it stays charged.

[Laecaon]

Open up the solenoid on one of your dead starters. Look at the contacts.

[wayno]

Open up the solenoid on one of your dead starters. Look at the contacts.

 

OK, I can do that, but I beleave that both of them quit because of the motor slowing down till it just quit turning altogether.

Here is a photo of the one that would come apart, it is not like the photo of the one above, it's differant, but doesn't look bad, this one is likely one that the motor quit turning, likely a bad armature, which is usually the issue.

I have totally differant cables on the truck now, but the same issue as before the cable change.

[oldskoolvws]

Are both those contacts on the same height? From what I see, the one to the right seems lower or is that because you cleaned it?

 

The theory I posted above would also cause your starter motor to slow as they go through the same solenoid contact. But you did that Ford thing. Hmmmm.

[wayno]

Are both those contacts on the same height? From what I see, the one to the right seems lower or is that because you cleaned it?

 

The theory I posted above would also cause your starter motor to slow as they go through the same solenoid contact. But you did that Ford thing. Hmmmm.

 

They(the contacts) are not the same color because they are not the same metal, one post is steel, the other is copper, and they are level and smooth, but as I said, this starter likely has a bad armature and the motor slowed down till it just stopped.

The other solenoid was not the type you can take apart, all the wires were soldered into position, and there were no screws holding the top to the body of the solenoid, it is a throw away starter solenoid, cheap.

I cannot recall where these starters came from anymore, I went through so many, and I was parting out so many trucks, I just put them into a tub and used them as needed, I have no more left, now I am going to have to buy them again, this Z24 one I put in looked new. :crying:

[DanielC]

I think I heard you can use a starter off a L-series (6 cylinder) Z car on a 4 cylinder L-engine. But on second thought, it your engine a L head on a Z block?

 

I still you need to check the voltage drops from the battery to the starter motor. If your solenoid has bad contracts, it will show up as excessive voltage drop, if you put the voltage probe on the braided cable coming out of the starter motor.

[oldskoolvws]

Also can you read the bad armature for resistance?

 

I wonder if you can megger a starter motor? Anyone?

[DanielC]

Post #9 in this thread has a link to a PDF to a Datsun electrical service manual, the manual has a section on rebuilding starters, and testing components in them.

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/49554-problems-with-the-truck/

[wayno]

I have the weirdest truck, you all know I have been having starter issues, to the point where I wired in a ford relay, the relay makes this knocking sound every time it is used, so I know it is working as it is mounted on the inner fender and sounds like a drum going off, so what's weird is that it still clicks and the starter motor doesn't run one time out of 3, but once it starts clicking it don't work most the time, but if I put the truck in neutral, let the clutch pedal out, it seems to work(starts truck) most every time.

How can this possibly be happening, the clutch pedal is not wired for anything, such a weird truck.

[skyblue]

it's possesed! :devil:

[oldskoolvws]

Pull the starter and check flywheel teeth. Either not enough current to spin or not engaging flywheel properly...my newest train of thought.

[wayno]

Well the alternator went bad again, I am out to remove this one and try another one, this is getting old.  <_<  :hmm:

[wayno]

I put another alternator in the truck, it does the same thing as the other one did before it went bad, the volt gauge in the cab jumps between 12 volts and 13.5 volts like it is going threw a flasher unit, there has to be a reason for this jumping, maybe in the wiring harness of the vehicle this internally regulated alternator came out of, there is something that I don't have in mine.

 

What is this thing for with the wire coming out of it that goes to the main alt. output post?

Can this be the reason mine jumps, do I need one of these, the ones I have installed do not have this condenser, is that what it is, a condenser?

My alternator is wired very simply now, the main output goes directly to the battery, the exciter wire goes directly to a key initiated fuse box post, the light wire goes to the dash light, which I removed while running to see if that was causing the issue, it changed nothing when disconnected, and the alternator is grounded with two ground wires, the original, and an extra I added.

 

I really need help to figure this out, as I don't understand this issue, it acts like the charging is turning on and off, like it is going threw a flasher, and the dash light very dimly does the same thing, it kinda turns on and off.