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mklotz70

1200 brake upgrade mklotz70

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I've been holding off posting this, but I've got some time right now and after doing up the 3D CAD art, I'm a bit excited....so I thought I'd share the progress. :)

 

Morrisun came over a few weeks ago on a Sunday to hang out. We had a great time hangin' out....playin' some pool waiting for lunch.....anyway...after lunch, he mentions that he'd like to look into a bigger brake option for the 1200. He was adament that it needed to be a non-vented rotor due to the weight. Well, figuring out brake upgrades just happens to be right up my alley!!! I jumped on it....we jacked up his car, pulled a wheel off, took some measurements. I had a rear rotor from a 300zx.....bit too big to fit behind the 14" wheels. So, we took those measurements and ran down to the scrapyard to see what we could find. Half way down the first aisle, viola! There was the rotor! :) It's the rear rotor from an '85 200sx. When we hit the 3/4 mark in the same isle, there was the caliper sitting on a '88? Pulsar NX. He came over a couple of evenings....despite the fact that I spent more time talking than working, we came up with a big brake option for the 1200 :)

First up....size comparison between the two rotors. This ought to be a lot more stopping power for a small weight increase. I'm starting to thing that the 410/411 may just benefit from this type of rotor too. Anyway....

 

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Initial indications were that 1/4" plate would work just fine.

 

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So...next step....mock up with some tag board(the cardboard on the back of a school tablet)....then transfer that to the 1/4" plate and check the fit.

 

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Time to see about the brake line. This may get changed out for a stainless steel line after we're able to test the setup on the vehicle.

 

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When we fit the wheel to the new setup, the thickness of the slip on rotor made the lug bolts a bit short. I popped in a 280zx rear lug bolt and it fit perfect.

 

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Here's a few pics of just how nicely the 14" wheel fits over this setup.

 

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Here's the 3 iterations for the bracket design I worked up in 2D CAD(solidedge by Siemens...full blow CAD and free!) I sent these pics off to a few guys and they all went straight for the curvy one......so the curvy one it is! :) I just worked up the 3D drawing in Alibre. I'm running their free 14 day trial, but I'm thinking I'm going to buy the $100 personal use version. I know for a fact that I will not be buying the $1100 professional version anytime soon!! Their program actually found 5-6 errors in my 2D art. Once I fixed those, it was super simple to add the thickness.

 

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Okay....where does this all stand right now. Earlier in the week, maybe even last week, I submitted the 2D art to my waterjet guy......so hopefully he's had some time this week and the prototype pieces will be showing up soon. We'll test those on the vehicle and see just how much better the brakes are with the new setup.

 

I also submitted the art to the laser cutter to find out how much they'd cost me for about 20 of them. Very reasonalbe!!! After we do some testing on the vehicle, I'll put in an order to get them laser cut. I've already ordered and received the bolts/washers/nuts for the kits. We decided to go with two different lengths of allen head bolts. The ones that hold the bracket to the strut tube will be longer and use a lock nut on the back side instead of loctite like I was originally thinking.

 

This should end up being a very affordable kit. I'm really sure at this point that it will be $60 or less......how much less? Depends on what the final numbers work out to and whether or not I put the longer studs in the kit or not. I'm not sure that guys with steel wheels would even need them, but I doubt that many guys will be running 14" steel wheels.

 

I want to test the brake setup on the car before I commit to anything, in case we need to change something. If everything is a go, I may even do a couple of different "kits". I'm thinking I may charge about $5 to send full scale CAD prints for guys that want to cut their own brackets and go buy their own hardware. I'll send 2, maybe 3 prints so that they can use them as a direct template. A second version of the kit may be about $20 and have prints and hardware. The final version will be the entire kit for the previous (possible) price mentioned.

 

Let me know what you think. I'd love to hear from the 1200 guys to guage interest levels and possible quantities.

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Count me in for a full kit. I have a few questions:

1) I saw that you referenced what the prototype calipers and rotors came from. Is there alot of crossover and production range on these? I mean, they aren't rare, one-year-only parts are they?

2) Did the track width increase? If so, how much?

3) Is the stock master cylinder acceptable with this upgrade?

4) Any plans for a vented rotor version -- just 'cuz?

5) Have you considered a complimentary rear disc conversion? I have a parts car (or just the rearend) I could loan you for the cause.

 

I'll be doing this no matter what! Anything is an improvement over the dinky go cart brakes they came with :rolleyes: .

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Count me in for a full kit. I have a few questions:

1) I saw that you referenced what the prototype calipers and rotors came from. Is there alot of crossover and production range on these? I mean, they aren't rare, one-year-only parts are they?

2) Did the track width increase? If so, how much?

3) Is the stock master cylinder acceptable with this upgrade?

4) Any plans for a vented rotor version -- just 'cuz?

5) Have you considered a complimentary rear disc conversion? I have a parts car (or just the rearend) I could loan you for the cause.

 

I'll be doing this no matter what! Anything is an improvement over the dinky go cart brakes they came with :rolleyes: .

 

 

 

Great questions!!

1). Quick check on rockauto tells us what else the donor parts come on. I'd say between the Sentra reference and the 280zx....these will be pretty easy to find!! :)

 

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2) Track width will increase the thickness of the rotor mounting surface....about 1/4" per side.....1/2" total.

 

3) These calipers are nearly identical bore to the stock units.....our opinion is that they m/c will not need to be changed.

 

4) I've taken a cursory look at the vented option with the G20 rotor(ala the 410/411 upgrade) and it would need to have the hubs machined to have any hope. I'll look at them again when I get a chance. If you get the cross drilled/slotted rotors, I see no need to increase the unsprung weight by going with vented. I'm pretty sure Morrisun said you can get them vented/slotted. The only difference in performance would be in possible brake fade. For as light as the car is, I just don't think that's going to be an issue. Until proven otherwise, vented rotors are, in my opinion, a cosmetic upgrade :)

 

5) Talk of rears has come up, but we'll wait and see how the fronts perform. On the 410/411 upgrade, the car stopped so quick with the upgrade that the owner decided to not even bother with a rear upgrade. I'm guessing this will be similar. Unless proven otherwise, rear discs would be cosmetic as well :) I'm not saying I won't look into it, but I've got bigger fish to fry. Rear discs would have such a limited demand, I'm just not sure it would be worth the effort to design. The fronts...oh ya....between here and OZ, there's still a ton of 1200's on the road. I haven't looked, but this may work for other models as well....with a mod to the bracket design.

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The bottom of the RA listing for the rotor shows that slotted rotors are available. You may want to do some googling to see if you can get cross drilled. Who knows, maybe Morrisun will get slotted rotors once the prototyping is done :)

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I tend to agree with you on most points. I only mentioned the vented rotors because, in my experience, they tend to resist warpage a little better. My 240z was really prone to that. Strangely, my 1200 doesn't have that problem -- I don't drive it that hard though. Solid rotors are probably fine since these cars weigh nothing :P . I bet you could sell some rear disc kit. Especially if they used parts that were also available down under. You might put out a feeler on 1200.com or check with ggzilla. He's pretty active on there and would be an excellent sounding board. It could be the introductory product from KLOTZ PRODUCTS INTERNATIONAL.

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LOL!! I like that name!! :)

 

I'll look into rears and vented....just not right away. I've got truck brackets to build right now and a whole list of other things to do :) I kinda did the 1200 stuff on borrowed time as it was. :)

 

I'll be checking with those guys fairly soon. Posting this stuff before we've even drove the prototype is kinda getting the cart before the horse, but oh well.

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The bottom of the RA listing for the rotor shows that slotted rotors are available. You may want to do some googling to see if you can get cross drilled. Who knows, maybe Morrisun will get slotted rotors once the prototyping is done :)

Chevy High Performance did an article on brakes a couple months ago that had some info I hadn't heard before. The consensus from all the "big brake" manufacturerswas that slots are for cooling and off-gassing (that's pretty common knowledge), but cross-drilling is purely for weight reduction and not necessary on a street car. There is no other advantage. So for the average 1200, cross drilling would probably be wasted money.

 

Thanks again Mike.

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Wow, nice work. Looks like a very simple solution. :)

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Thanks :)

 

 

10.125" approx, if I remember right.

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Should be an easy to come by rotor:

 

* Overall Height: 1.86"

* Overall Diameter: 10.15"

* Bolt/Holes: 4

* Bolt Circle Diameter: 4.50"

* Center Hole Diameter: 2.68"

* Nominal Thickness: .39"

* Discard Thickness: .35"

* Type: Solid

 

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@ $19 on RA, pretty cheap too. :) Looks like EBC has Green Stuff performance pads for about $70 and ceramics are available for about $50. Ought to make for some killer braking on a car that small and light!! We'll find out in about a week if the proto pieces come in :)

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10.125" is about 257mm. So this is larger than the bolt-on 242mm Datsun rotors.

 

 

there was the caliper sitting on a '88? Pulsar NX

Mike, will the caliper fit under 13" wheels?

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Sorry...I have no clue what the other disc options are....I built this going by Morrisun's desires. :)

 

Fit 13"s...again...no clue. I'll check with Morrisun and see if he has a 13" 1200 wheel to check on it. Depending on the style of wheel...maybe, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

the stock rotor on the pulsar is 249mm and it's listed as a 13" wheel. If there's more than 4mm clearance on the radius....sweet....I'll see if we can check.

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There are lots of versions of those rotors on ebay also, (drilled and slotted, just slotted, etc.), for fairly cheap. When I bought mine, I just had them dimple and slot them (instead of drilling them all the way though), this way I got the look, without weakening the rotor. And the zinc plating is cool, lol.

 

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I have biddies that run them on their turbo cars with no issues.

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Are those 1200 or 510? Those are really nice. I'm actually going to be looking to borrow a stock 510 strut again. I've got an idea for a cheap brake upgrade on the 510's that won't require a strut change.

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You are the man as usual Mr Klotz! Makes me wish I had bought that 1200 that was for sale locally 2 weeks ago! Hmmm there is one with no motor or trans a few hours south of me. (You guys have it so good out west!)

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Thanks Scott! If I could do this as well as you make art, then I'd have something!! :)

 

Sorry I didn't give you a heads up earlier....we've been playing with this for nearly a month now.

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I got them for my dime. They are for 82-83 280zx (same as the rear on 82-83-200sx, so they work with Aarons rear brackets.) I got them on ebay from V1Specs. I have not installed them yet, (waiting to do all of them at once), but they seem really nice, and my buddies have run them for a while on their twin turbo Supras and such. (I'm pretty sure they are just OE style, that they make look all pretty, lol)

 

This is the listing they have up right now. (I didn't get them with the pads). Very cool people to deal with. http://cgi.ebay.com/...sQ5fAccessories

 

I'm very interested mike, if you can make a vented rotor upgrade for a 510, that fits on the stock struts and clears 13's. I never wanted to change out my struts, because I already have my suspension dialed just the way I like it. (I was only doing 280zx, because I had too, unless I wanted to spend crazy money for a full kit)

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I started looking into a vented, non-captured option at one point, but it required machining the stock hub and taking quite a bit of metal off the outside edge. It comes down to the rotor options. If I were to have a custom rotor made up, it might be possible, but I doubt the market would bear the cost. As for fitting 13's.....I don't know for sure, but I seriously doubt there's a non-captured rotor out there that would allow that and still use a modern style caliper. Maybe with a Wilwood caliper, but that puts things into the "money no object" category. Anything is possible in that context, but this is the Datsun market.....it has to be fairly cheap....which negates quite a few options :)

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More specific info on the studs. These are the same studs that guys use on the 510's.....which is what I originally bought them for.

 

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Picked these up today. We may end up using ones that are a bit shorter. I bought these at Oil Filter Services, although I figure if guys want them on their rig, they can order them from Summit. :)

 

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Summit has them. Oil Filter doesn't have a site that I've found. The originally told me about $75 for the pair with ends, but they dropped that about $15-20 when I told them what Summit wanted....but I didn't realize the Summit price was for shorter lines. Anyway....I just got a new contact that may be able to get me DOT approved lines at a sweet price....we'll see.

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