WTF. Karma, or act of god?

[copacetickid]

For the past month my partner and I have been looking for a new car for her to go to school. Her car is going to be part of her livelihood and needed to be able to handle all kinds of driving conditions. We decided after a while that a subaru station wagon would be the best fit for her, so I started researching late nineties models in our price range. I found that the 2.5L engines last forever, but have a weak link, which is the faulty head gaskets. Depending on the car, the gaskets would start to go around 100K and tend to cost at least $1500 to fix on the low end. So in searching for the right car, we turned down every one we found that hadn't had the head gaskets replaced. After a month of calls and over 40 carfax reports, we finally found what seemed to be the perfect car at a reasonable price: 118K miles, head gaskets/timing belt/clutch all replaced 1000 miles ago, good CV boots, new brakes all around, new tires, regular (documented) oil changes, clean carfax. We buy it and drive it around for a week before she has to take it to NM to go to school.

 

She started driving on Sunday, and only made it 350 miles.

 

She called and said that she immediately pulled off to the side of the road after hearing a funny noise from the engine and seeing all of the dash warning lights on. I immediately thought electrical, so I looked it up and sure enough a handful of subi owners say that all of their dash lights go on after their alternator goes bad. I just thought the funny noise was probably her imagination. I asked her to see if the car would start. Nope. Ok, well the battery is probably too drained. It turns over though? That's strange. It turns over but doesn't start. Time to call a tow truck I guess. The local import mechanic is closed on sundays, so she gets a room at a hotel.

 

The next morning she calls and says "I think I'm going to vomit." The battery/alternator were fine, so they pulled off the timing cover and found that the two camshafts on the passenger side were misaligned by 90 degrees. Wow. Zero compression in the passenger cylinders. Time to pull the heads and see the damage. The guy doesn't know how it happened, maybe the hydraulic tensioner started leaking oil. There were also a hundred little bits of black plastic floating around in the timing belt compartment, and a piece of rubber gasket missing from the timing cover.

 

So monday I drove down to pick her up and looked at the engine. The four exhaust valves were bent and left dings in the pistons but at least the intakes didn't look like they hit. Also, the idler pulleys and the tensioner had rough bearings and probably had never been replaced. I looked it up in the records, and sure enough when the timing belt was replaced no other component from that assembly was replaced.

 

We just spent $4500 for the car, and in the blink of an eye, we're in the hole 3K more. There is no emoticon that can convey my disgust. Whether it's because some mechanic was sloppy when replacing the timing cover, the PO took a shortcut and didn't have the right parts replaced, or a simple freak occurrence, it's times like these that make you wonder what you must be doing wrong.

 

Oh yeah, and has anyone heard of a machine shop requiring you to get a new radiator to warranty their work?? Icing on the cake!

[Phlebmaster]

Man...what do you say to that? I am sorry to hear about the car trouble. :(

 

Look at the bright side...you will have a new radiator, new timing set, and a new set of valves and a head gasket. :D

Edited April 29, 2009 by Phlebmaster

[Wharf Rat]

That is a total bummer, I can not understand these rubber band driven camshaft engines being built to mash valves on street cars when they break. The subi 2.2 is not a valve crasher.

 

Sorry for your troubles that realy sucks :(

Edited April 29, 2009 by Wharf Rat

[moparvwfreak]

bummer. i felt that way when i first got my 93 Passat. had the car 2 days adn the battery goes south. no biggy slap a new batt in it $120 from the dealer. take it into my mechanic, a guy i trust with all my dubs, and have the secondary water pump, intake boot, adn a few other things done, parts were a killer, to the tune of $700. no biggy. 2 days after that the main engine harness BURNED. another $700 or so to fix that. so in a week the car that was perfect in every way cost me an extra $1400 on top of my $3000 to buy it. i am now into the car almost $10k on a $2000 car. but i love it.

 

if it seems to be a good car, for her, i would fix it and drive it till it rusts out and falls apart.

[izzo]

I feel you, seems like i get burned on every single car i buy

 

 

First i bought a 84 Jetta 2 door, car was sweet. 3 days after i got it the rear main went out and right after that the clutch did. I couldnt fix it in time and it got towed... ($500)

 

Bought an 89 sentra, rear main went in that too. Astoria towing has it. ($1200)

 

Bought a 1990 sentra. First the fuel pump, the alternator twice, timing chain and then the tail lights quit working (not a fuse either) (1300 for the car, 900 in parts/repairs)

 

bought an 89 ranger, this is the bitch here.

 

Bought that pos for 1500. it was a 1989 Ranger, 4x4, ext cab. Factory 3 inch lift, factory fog lights, factory canopy. Ugly red interior but man i didnt care it was a 4x4!

 

where to start...

 

First time it f'd up. I went to hop in it and goto oregon to see my sister. We planned on doing some 4x4'ing. Wouldnt start. the little park/neutral safety swtich lever was bent and it would not push the sensor in to let me start it. Had to bypass that.

 

No biggy eh?

 

Drove it down to my sisters house, and go out 4x4ing. Dies 3-4 times in the middle and gets stuck in 4x4 (god damn push button automatic 4x4)

 

let it sit for a few hours then took off, it went out of 4x4.

 

Driving back up to puyallup it wouldnt stop going in and out of overdrive/drive at 75mph. Not sure what its issue was

 

Coming home from work, stopped off at the safeway and got some milk n shit. Started it up and it didnt start just right. wasnt sure what the deal was. Got almost home and checked the mail, went to start it back up and nothing! good new battery, no start. Turns out the starter fried. Crap!

130 for a new starter

 

Took it out 4x4ing again, this time water got in the automatic 4x4 motor (the motor that auto switch it into and out of 4x4)

350 dollar fix

 

well what else could go wrong, has a newish trans in it, buncha new parts right?

 

ha... Drover back down to oregon and had my girl friend follow me just in case (needed to haul some stuff in it back up to WA. Coming up a hill my inspection plate flew off and hit her van lol. Oh well i said, gotta get where we are going at least so i can fix it there. i get about 40 miles from the place we are going and the flex plate explodes... bah...

 

spent 6 1/2 hours dropping that trans out and putting in a new flex plate, then reinstalling it. Mind you it was dead winter snowing and icy out. that sucks doing it in 27 degree weather.

 

 

Finally, i think im done. I let the truck sit for another week to come down the following and pick it up. I have my GF drive it back and i drive my car since she cant drive stick. whats that damn ranger do? over heats and blows a buncha smoke out the whole way up there. For fucks sake. That was the biggest piece of shit i have ever owned. Not one single FORD i have ever bought ran worth a shit.

 

I sold it for 500 dollars after putting all that money into it within a MONTH.

 

 

 

anyways, sorry to hear about that. theres some of my shitty car deals, btw FUCK FORD!

[a.d._510_n_ok]

I had sort of the opposite thing happen to me the last time I bought a car for the wife.

 

In March of 2008 she wrecked a cherry '87 Maxima we had bought from the niece of the original owner.

 

A mechanic friend of mine called me and said he had just the car she needed.

 

It turned out to be a 1996 Pontiac Grand Am SE coupe that looked very nice, had a great running Quad 4, new tires and everything on it worked to include the factory CD player.

 

The wife test drove it and came back shaking her head and said, "It drives like a brand new car".

 

I asked my bud how much he wanted for the car and he said, "$800".

 

I looked at him kind of funny and asked, "What's the catch?".

 

He sighed and said, "Look at the odometer".

 

217,000 miles!!! :eek:

 

We started to pay him cash and he said, "No, give me $200 a month and if it dies before you pay it off we'll call it even".

 

About two months later the fuel pump died.

 

I bought the pump ($186) and he put it on for $40.

 

In May of last year we drove the thing to Dallas (about five hours from my house) to see Dealy Plaza and take the kids to a Mindless Self Indulgence concert. It used just over 3/4 tank of fuel round trip.

 

About two weeks ago, the wife said the engine oil light was on and that the engine was loud. I towed the thing back to my mechanic bud and told him it needed an oil pump.

 

He called me the next day and said he had something to show me. When I got to his shop he handed me what I thought was a large washer with very rough edges. He said, "Naw, dude - that's the drive gear for your oil pump! The teeth on it were wore smooth off!".

 

He replaced the gear and pump and charged me $150.

 

Freakin' thing now runs like a brand new one again and has 239,000 on the clock.

[a.d._510_n_ok]

Kinda weird -

 

my 1980 Datsun is 29 years old and has an original 130k on the clock.

 

my daughter's 1961 Plymouth is 49 years old (it was built in 1960) and has less than 100k on the clock.

 

the wife's 1996 Grand Am is only thirteen years old and has more miles than the other two managed to log in a combined 78 years :eek::lol::blink:.

Edited April 30, 2009 by a.d._510_n_ok

[72240z]

Needing a new radiator for a warranty seems a really hack way to go about that. Any machine shop I ever dealt with uses heat tabs to guarantee the motor wasn't over heated. It's a little 30 cent tab that sticks on, over a certain temp and the center allow button melts out. Seems better business to spend 30 cents instead of forcing the customer to spend 150+ on a rad they may not even need.

 

You may want to mention that to them and see what they say.

 

Sorry to hear about the whole deal though, sometimes it's better to cut your losses early rather then continue to shovel money onto the fire trying to put out the flames.

 

 

"Simple yet effective method to detect overheated engines. When attached to the engine block or cylinder head, the heat sensitive material in the centre of the tab will melt and fall out if the temperature exceeds 121

Edited April 30, 2009 by 72240z

[djlotus]

Did you guys buy it from a dealer or a private party? If from a dealer, what are the lemon laws like in WA?

 

My car experiences: 91 Teg (first car) - $1800 (had I known more I woulda waited) total Rice-boy car when I bought it. Ran like poo. Little bit of basic maintenance and it ran ok. One days I lost the brakes. Then I figured while I fixed that I'd replace the suspension (needed it). Not a single problem after that, minus being multicolored/primered and awaiting a paint job. Went back to Cali last year to deliver it to my buddy/new owner and after having sat for a year it started right up and drove like just before I left.

 

02 Teg (rsx-s) - hand-me-down - Given to me after my dad wrecked it and he learned I was moving cross country. Wanted me to have a 'more reliable' car.

 

69 510 - $2005 - Engine blew up on the drive home. Left me in the middle of bumfuck nowhere for about 24 hours. Truck rental + tow dolly + hotel room for the night + gas = almost half the cost of the car. There's definitely a love/hate with this car as it sits in my garage getting body work done (again) and final locations of the engine/tranny.

 

88 528e - $Free - Or about 250 if you count the tolls, gas, and dolly rental. Ugly POS. Hilarious though. It was rear-ended I assume and was bent kinda like a banana. Thus earning it the name of 'bent-mobile'. Drove great, still had plenty of power, only issues were the bent-ness and some electrical gremlins. Sold to a buddy who has way too many BMWs than he needs.

[LCDC]

well, maybe I won't get a subaru then.

[ggzilla]

I would do the opposite: I wouldn't buy any car that had the head gasket(s) replaced. I want a good used *reliable* car that didn't have any major problems such as needing head gaskets replaced. In any case I think your logic was OK -- the head gaskets were OK. It was the timing belt let go, which could happen to most newer cars.

 

Remember that it is said about every aluminum headed car: "The head gaskets tend to blow". That is generally rubbish and usually not true. They say it about Datsuns too but we know that is bunk. If the car doesn't overheat, the head gaskets almost never go bad.

 

The Subaru 2.2 (1996 or 1997 Legacy, for example) doesn't bend the valves if the timing belt lets go. Also, replacing tensioner or other items is not a regular maintainence item, so that's not an indication of shoddy work. But then the 2.2 is relatively weak for the Legacy, the 2.5 is more suitable for a 3200-3500 pound car.

[compression]

Yeah, ummmm subarus and their shitty head gaskets, probably should have just avoided them all together and got a different car.

You can also expect: warped front brake rotors and bad wheel bearings.

 

Did you have a mechanic look at the car before you bought it? obviously whoever did the work screwed up big time.

i have owned lots of subaru's over the past several years (and still do!) yes the 2.5's have terrible head gasket problems. Usually starts out as a little coolant leak, (sometimes internal, sometimes external) than eventually all your coolant is gone and the engine overheats.

You said you paid 3k to fix the car?!

You can get a replacement engine for less than $1k fairly easily. Slap new headgaskets in it( while it is out of the car) and then drop it in.

In fact I just picked up 1999 2.5L for $400 that i am going to swap into my impreza 2.2 (after new head gaskets and timing belt of course).

Subarus are one of the easiest cars to swap engines in/out. the engines are small everything bolts to everything between models.

Make sure you use the subaru OEM coolant conditioner to help prevent another head gasket failure. This stuff is available at your local suby dealership and you add it to your coolant.

 

sorry to hear about the bad news. With late 90's/early 2000's subarus, you have to be good with a wrench!

Working on a subaru is different, but not hard.

[bru73]

take it from a subaru mechanic replace the tentioner and all ilders and if the heads are not back on yet DO NOT USE factery head gaskets use phelpro the factery ones will start to leak in 30,000 miles i know i have done mulptel head gaskets on the same car and make shure the valve adjust is dead on if the valves are tight this contrubets to the head gaskets leaking good luck o ya one more thing if it is a 5sp make shure it has the delt guide over the crank sproket if not it WILL jump time.

[hessianben]

Man. sorry to hear that Steven.

 

At always happens exactly when you DON'T need another hurdle.

If you really like the car, then it's worth the investment to replace the important stuff and make it a legacy car- like a Datto! Keep it forever! If it's purely a transitional/temporary car, then cut your losses.

 

My girlfriend's last car is still sitting in front of our house decaying...

Kia doesn't make it loudly known that their timing belts are only meant to last 60K!! (on an interference engine!!!) beh....:(

[HRH]

New cars are the devil Bobby Bouche! Long live the L motor! Sucky though, is there any lemon law that would allow you to return it or at least make the previous owner/shop pay for your bill?

 

I would do the opposite: I wouldn't buy any car that had the head gasket(s) replaced. I want a good used *reliable* car that didn't have any major problems such as needing head gaskets replaced. In any case I think your logic was OK -- the head gaskets were OK. It was the timing belt let go, which could happen to most newer cars.

 

Remember that it is said about every aluminum headed car: "The head gaskets tend to blow". That is generally rubbish and usually not true. They say it about Datsuns too but we know that is bunk. If the car doesn't overheat, the head gaskets almost never go bad.

 

The Subaru 2.2 (1996 or 1997 Legacy, for example) doesn't bend the valves if the timing belt lets go. Also, replacing tensioner or other items is not a regular maintainence item, so that's not an indication of shoddy work. But then the 2.2 is relatively weak for the Legacy, the 2.5 is more suitable for a 3200-3500 pound car.

 

Actually, the blowing of head gaskets on the 2.5 Subi is well documented. And the L16 stock motors were prone to the same problem if you ran them over 100k without changing the stock gasket, which you're supposed to do anyway if you're going to replace the chain which is also recommended to be replaced at 100k. My original 510 rally car engine was fine until last winter when it started leaking water into a cylinder. Had about 124k on the clock.

 

But any used car you're going to look at over that mileage will most likely have a head gasket replaced, and they should if things were done correctly. I would be worried if they DIDN'T, and if bought, that would be the first thing I'd do. Usually what happens is the po can't afford it and says just do the timing belt/chain, despite the shop's intentions of idler pulleys, tensioners, etc. At 60k (recommended interval) I wouldn't do head gaskets, but sure as shit at 120k, I'd yank it apart, throw a new gasket or set if subi on and call it good.

[copacetickid]

Needing a new radiator for a warranty seems a really hack way to go about that. Any machine shop I ever dealt with uses heat tabs to guarantee the motor wasn't over heated. It's a little 30 cent tab that sticks on, over a certain temp and the center allow button melts out. Seems better business to spend 30 cents instead of forcing the customer to spend 150+ on a rad they may not even need.

 

You may want to mention that to them and see what they say.

 

Thanks for the tip, I'll be sure to mention it. At this point, they have probably already done most of the work though, so they have me by the balls.

 

Did you guys buy it from a dealer or a private party? If from a dealer, what are the lemon laws like in WA?

 

Bought it from a private party, and the timing belt was replaced two years/8000 miles ago so no warranty from the shop :(.

 

The Subaru 2.2 (1996 or 1997 Legacy, for example) doesn't bend the valves if the timing belt lets go. Also, replacing tensioner or other items is not a regular maintainence item, so that's not an indication of shoddy work. But then the 2.2 is relatively weak for the Legacy, the 2.5 is more suitable for a 3200-3500 pound car.

 

Wish I'd known that about the 2.2s, I would have been happy with one, they were just less common. It seems absurd to me that the failure of something as complex and accident-prone as a serpentine belt should cause catastrophic damage by design! WTF!

 

You said you paid 3k to fix the car?!

You can get a replacement engine for less than $1k fairly easily. Slap new headgaskets in it( while it is out of the car) and then drop it in.

In fact I just picked up 1999 2.5L for $400 that i am going to swap into my impreza 2.2 (after new head gaskets and timing belt of course).

Subarus are one of the easiest cars to swap engines in/out. the engines are small everything bolts to everything between models.

Make sure you use the subaru OEM coolant conditioner to help prevent another head gasket failure. This stuff is available at your local suby dealership and you add it to your coolant.

 

Unfortunately, since the car is 350 miles away I just said to go ahead with the repairs. I have a job that doesn't have very flexible hours, and I already spent half the weak picking up my partner from there. Not to mention I have to work to get paid... If this ever happens again god forbid, I'll look at getting a new engine first. Where do you go looking for a whole engine? If it's out of the car, is it really going to be problem free? I feel like if it's been in a crash, I don't want to touch it, but maybe that's silly.

 

take it from a subaru mechanic replace the tentioner and all ilders and if the heads are not back on yet DO NOT USE factery head gaskets use phelpro the factery ones will start to leak in 30,000 miles i know i have done mulptel head gaskets on the same car and make shure the valve adjust is dead on if the valves are tight this contrubets to the head gaskets leaking good luck o ya one more thing if it is a 5sp make shure it has the delt guide over the crank sproket if not it WILL jump time.

 

Thanks for the tip bru73, I'll ask them not to put factory gaskets in. I don't understand what you said about the valve adjust and the 'delt guide', but I'd like to know! What can I ask/tell the mechanic to make sure he's doing these right? The guy is nice, but telling any professional how to do their job is probably going to piss them off... and that's the last thing I want to do at this point.

 

If you really like the car, then it's worth the investment to replace the important stuff and make it a legacy car- like a Datto! Keep it forever! If it's purely a transitional/temporary car, then cut your losses.

 

I do like the car, but I don't really have a choice in the matter... If I don't do the work, we're out 4K with nothing to show for it, and we'd have to buy another car with that 3K. I'd rather have this subi than one we can buy for 3K. Thanks for your sympathy Ben, I guess sometimes you just need to feel it from others.

[ggzilla]

Now I'm worried. Our 2.5 Forester has 30K+ miles on it. I thought they were supposed to have fixed the oil leaks...it is a newer one are they any better than the early 2.5s?

 

Our 1996 2.2 leaked oil like an old Datsun :-) but no problems with the head gaskets. I knew when it was time to change the timing belt when the belt snapped. I know I can't take that risk with an interference design of the 2.5.

 

Subaru is nice but I don't understand why people buy them: More expensive than Toyota, less choice of colors and trim, all these engine problems, noisier than its peers. My wife keeps getting a Subaru. Well, I understand why people want a WRX...but not the others.

[Jester]

One thing to think about with the "new radiator requirement" ; Does your engine have an oil cooler? My wifes Suburban has an oil cooler that goes through the radiator like an automatic tranny. When I put a new engine in that I put a new radiator and lines.

[PEZi720]

man... that sucks

 

my buddy has an 01 wagon that needs the belt changed and he said to do it himself ALL the correct parts alone cost $500... perhaps cost was why it wasn't done properly but either way its as stupid as it gets!

[ggzilla]

I've been researching the head gasket problems.

* 1996-1999 EJ25D engine -- has the bad problems. At the first sign of (mild) overheating, have it checked out.

* 1999-2003(?) 2.5 engines, may have external leaks. Won't ruin the engine. New design head gasket fixes this.

* Latest 2.5 engines, no problems.